All Wado Karate Forum

Just a note in general..

When I started my Dojo people encouraged me to arrange some kind of insurance so I did. It is not mandatory by law. After a few years I found that I didn't need it, so I cancelled it. Our Dojo uses a subscription form which also contains a line that they do not hold our Dojo responsible for injury etc. I guess that will cover it?

AJ

WadoAJ wrote:When I started my Dojo people encouraged me to arrange some kind of insurance so I did. It is not mandatory by law. After a few years I found that I didn't need it, so I cancelled it.

I think you're right. My research shows the same.
http://www.mijnrechtsbijstandverzekerin ... vragen.htm
According to Dutch law (in my own words): 'Shit happens. But as long as it is fair play, and not due to irresponsible behavior, you can't blame anyone else but yourself. After all, you choose to participate in the activity.'
Which, for me, makes perfect sense. It doesn't leave any need for insurance, except your own private health insurance. And fortunately it doesn't leave room for ambulance chasers either...

WadoAJ wrote: Our Dojo uses a subscription form which also contains a line that they do not hold our Dojo responsible for injury etc. I guess that will cover it?

This is a bit more tricky. You can put whatever you want in your terms, but if it isn't according to law, you're screwed. So if the law says that you're responsible for something, then you are responsible, no matter your terms. In other words: you can't absolve yourself of any lawful responsibility. However, in this case it's not really relevant. And again, this is only from a Dutch perspective.

WadoAJ wrote:Just a note in general..
When I started my Dojo people encouraged me to arrange some kind of insurance so I did. It is not mandatory by law. After a few years I found that I didn't need it, so I cancelled it. Our Dojo uses a subscription form which also contains a line that they do not hold our Dojo responsible for injury etc. I guess that will cover it?
AJ

Similar to Kyudo, but 'disclaimer forms' don't mean anything if 'the dojo', instructor or student has done something wrong. However the law does protect you if you have acted as you should reasonably been expected to. (UK)

However you could consider a disclaimer that also defines how you expect the students/instructor to behave and explains that the risks of the activity. I do a lot of coaching of white water kayaking, which is a dangerous environment. The phrase I often see used is 'kayaking is an assumed risk activity'!

It would be interesting to see how sports such as Rugby and Football deal with the issue; I imagine that they are more established/regulated by associations and they certainly seem to have many more injuries when compared to karate!

Personally I think the insurance is important in case you ever do have to prove that you 'acted reasonably' as the costs can be crazy and the ambulance chasers are everywhere!

Rob

Rob can you update your details with a full name and location please.

Thanks for the input.

WadoAJ wrote: Our Dojo uses a subscription form which also contains a line that they do not hold our Dojo responsible for injury etc. I guess that will cover it?

This is a bit more tricky. You can put whatever you want in your terms, but if it isn't according to law, you're screwed. So if the law says that you're responsible for something, then you are responsible, no matter your terms. In other words: you can't absolve yourself of any lawful responsibility. However, in this case it's not really relevant. And again, this is only from a Dutch perspective.

Thanks for your replies Igor and Rob. I will elaborate with some examples also.

Naturally..
It is not just a rule, it is common sense that people need to behave properly, which includes the teacher. Nevertheless, there are perhaps clubs that do not have subscription forms because they think the way you describe. Although it is not incorrect, I would hesitate to do it in such a way. The subscription form we use shows clearly what our intentions are and what we expect from members. In the same way, the members know what to expect from us. It is a professional attitude I am talking about, not necessarily law.

Two examples from experience.
fist one about fees. In Holland - as you probably know Igor - when being a member of a club your membership would be extended with for example 12 months. I guess as many people lead their daily lives and these things happen automatically and sometimes unwanted, a new law was introduced and has taken affect since 01-01-2012. It is called "Wet van Dam" and it means that clubs can only let their members sing for a longer period once. After that period the contract becomes "onbepaalde tijd" unlimited and you can stop it every month. This is the law, so we changed our contract.

Another one, not about fees
I was just about to start my class, all kids where lined up. Then a father literally pushed his kid in the Dojo on the line between other kids and walked away. He was out of sight before I could talk to him. I had no real choice but to offer the kid a test lesson. However, this kid suddenly became my responsibility. Perhaps in court I would win, but in general people expect me to take care of their kids.

Hence, I was talking about that our contract is not only about the rules, but also a way to show our intention to the members. What is to be expected from them and what they can expect from us. We are not some boys 'just renting a hall'.

AJ

WadoAJ wrote:

WadoAJ wrote: fist one about fees. In Holland - as you probably know Igor - when being a member of a club your membership would be extended with for example 12 months. I guess as many people lead their daily lives and these things happen automatically and sometimes unwanted, a new law was introduced and has taken affect since 01-01-2012. It is called "Wet van Dam" and it means that clubs can only let their members sing for a longer period once. After that period the contract becomes "onbepaalde tijd" unlimited and you can stop it every month. This is the law, so we changed our contract.

There's a solution for that. I have a payment scheme that gives people a discount when they pay 6 months ahead and more discount if they pay for a year. Most of my students pay for at least six months. They're not obliged to show up. But most do. :-)

kyudo wrote:

WadoAJ wrote:

WadoAJ wrote: fist one about fees. In Holland - as you probably know Igor - when being a member of a club your membership would be extended with for example 12 months. I guess as many people lead their daily lives and these things happen automatically and sometimes unwanted, a new law was introduced and has taken affect since 01-01-2012. It is called "Wet van Dam" and it means that clubs can only let their members sing for a longer period once. After that period the contract becomes "onbepaalde tijd" unlimited and you can stop it every month. This is the law, so we changed our contract.

There's a solution for that. I have a payment scheme that gives people a discount when they pay 6 months ahead and more discount if they pay for a year. Most of my students pay for at least six months. They're not obliged to show up. But most do. :-)

Haha Igor,

I have a better one ;)

- wij hebben een incasso contract bij de Rabobank. Dit zorgt ervoor dat kosten gelijkmatig binnen komen, rekeningen moeten ook vaak maandelijks betaald worden. Wij hebben een eigen pand namelijk. Zo heb ik meer zicht op de geldstroom, zit ik niet met contant geld en hoef ik ook nauwelijks te administreren. Dit is namelijk alleen het geval als er een incasso mislukt, dit is een kwestie van een factuur sturen..

Sorry people but I'm in a hurry and doing that in English takes too much time..
AJ