All Wado Karate Forum

I thought that Mochizuki Minoru founded and taught Yoseikan Karate and Aikido, and that it was his son Mochizuki Hiroo whom created Yoseikan Budo in the 1970s. I only state this as I was under the impression Vernon Bell, whom introduced Karate to Britain, was a practitioner of Yoseikan Karate and according to the dates this would make no historical sense if Yoseikan Budo already existed as an incorporated system. Could any one clear up this confusion for me? I am having no luck looking at the various sources on the internet I can find.

Wado heretic wrote:I thought that Mochizuki Minoru founded and taught Yoseikan Karate and Aikido, and that it was his son Mochizuki Hiroo whom created Yoseikan Budo in the 1970s. I only state this as I was under the impression Vernon Bell, whom introduced Karate to Britain, was a practitioner of Yoseikan Karate and according to the dates this would make no historical sense if Yoseikan Budo already existed as an incorporated system. Could any one clear up this confusion for me? I am having no luck looking at the various sources on the internet I can find.

MM was an old school Budo master who trained under Mifune, Ueyshiba and Sugino amongst others. His dojo had karate training too, which was shotokan based. The first karate in Europe was from Yoseikan
Bell wanted to do JKA karate but eventually reverted to the Yoseikan style once the JKA slipped through his hands.
Have a read of Clive Layton's books on the subject, I doubt you will find the detail on the internet.
Ben

oneya wrote:

As with many who change from one style to another Ben it (Mochizuki's wado) wasn't wado enough for Suzuki so the parting of the ways was only a matter of time. Dan grading was always an issue but in those days no one understood how sophisticated it was and many still don't, so I think it was necessary if wado ryu was ever going to be able to stand alone.

I'm pretty sure Yoseikan Budo today has moved on from Minoru Mochizuki's day.

oneya

When you look back to those early days there were only really a handful of karateka from Japan who had trained for any length of time before they came to Europe - Suzuki, Kono, Toyama, Yamashita, Kojima, Ohgami and Sakagami.

Mochizuki had been doing the yoesikan karate for a few years before he changed to Wado. How much wado he learnt I don't know. Kihon gumite were not (still are not) widely trained in the university clubs generally, so he may have only learned kata, basics and fighting tactics. But you can see on the films of him from the 1960's he was quite skillful and had good kicking technique. He models the kata in Henri Plee's classic "karate beginner to black belt".

Ben

When you look back to those early days there were only really a handful of karateka from Japan who had trained for any length of time before they came to Europe - Suzuki, Kono, Toyama, Yamashita, Kojima, Ohgami and Sakagami.

Mochizuki had been doing the yoesikan karate for a few years before he changed to Wado. How much wado he learnt I don't know. Kihon gumite were not (still are not) widely trained in the university clubs generally, so he may have only learned kata, basics and fighting tactics. But you can see on the films of him from the 1960's he was quite skillful and had good kicking technique. He models the kata in Henri Plee's classic "karate beginner to black belt".

Exactly my point Ben. Mochizuki's karate was too Shoto and Yoseikan to allow him to grade anyone in wado. Despite his struggle with the English language, beyond Suzuki was a lean palate of wado knowledge of any depth but what there was came from Japanese Universities that ground in their basics. I think part of the answer is to realise that 'sensei' was in quite a few instances an honorific for the most part -- not a designation and very often not a description.

Suzuki knew the last thing he needed in the UK was a Henri Plée version of Wado ryu fundamentals.

oneya

Thankyou for the clarification Ben, makes more sense of the situation to know that. I can't afford such a book at this time, I am saving up for a reprinted version of Ōtsuka Hironori's original Wado Ryu book. Is there a particular book of Clive Layton's with valuable historical information with in it worth looking for specifically?

I have heard tales of the early days off some of the older karateka I know, and some of them have said they started under 6th Kyu and had to travel to find Yudansha instructors. One of them even explained that he did Shotokan for six months under a Brown belt but dropped it because he simply preferred to travel to go train under a Shodan in Wado Ryu, even though the Shotokan club was literally around the corner from his work place. Sounds as though that was quite a common experiance in the early years of karate in this country.

Wado heretic wrote:Thankyou for the clarification Ben, makes more sense of the situation to know that. I can't afford such a book at this time, I am saving up for a reprinted version of Ōtsuka Hironori's original Wado Ryu book. Is there a particular book of Clive Layton's with valuable historical information with in it worth looking for specifically?

I have heard tales of the early days off some of the older karateka I know, and some of them have said they started under 6th Kyu and had to travel to find Yudansha instructors. One of them even explained that he did Shotokan for six months under a Brown belt but dropped it because he simply preferred to travel to go train under a Shodan in Wado Ryu, even though the Shotokan club was literally around the corner from his work place. Sounds as though that was quite a common experiance in the early years of karate in this country.

Layton's books are quite hard going unless you are devoted shotokan karateka. To give him credit, he did a thorough job, but perhaps he went too far with the minutiae (grading records, correspondence and details of receipts etc). I'm sure you can get them through your local / university library rather than buy them.

His book on the instructor Kawasoe sensei is definately worth a read.

Ben

I already have a list of books I wish to get, but I shall add that to the list as it does sound interesting.

Wado heretic wrote:I can't afford such a book at this time, I am saving up for a reprinted version of Ōtsuka Hironori's original Wado Ryu book.

If you can ever get down on the sunny south coast to train at my club, there is a spare paperback version in it. I can't make it too easy!

If I am ever down on the south coast I'll take you up on that offer. I have only seen parts of the book but it's definetely worth it for it's historical value. I have never been down south so it's an unlikely occurence but we can live in hope, or abject terror at how bad my karate probably is.

On the video; when it comes to Gohonme. I have seen two variations of the throw; the one as seen in the video but also one where the seme steps back and performs a wrist lock to subdue the uke. Is one simply a method for beginners or are they variations that exist depending on organisation or the time one trained with Otsuka Meijin?

:-)

Count y'self lucky.

I've turned more people away this last couple of months than people that have joined over 2 years.