What happens when you start training in a koryu art?

[wadoka]

When people start karate they are usually taking through punching on the spot to work correct arm movements, then a few stances before junzuki, jodan uke and so on.

What happens in the first few lessons within a koryu school? What is the progression with regards to principles and what we would call 'kihon'? Is a lot of time spent with a partner, how much time is spent solo?

[Kogusoku]

When people start karate they are usually taking through punching on the spot to work correct arm movements, then a few stances before junzuki, jodan uke and so on.

What happens in the first few lessons within a koryu school? What is the progression with regards to principles and what we would call 'kihon'? Is a lot of time spent with a partner, how much time is spent solo?

1. It depends on the ryuha and what disciplines the ryuha teaches. If it's jujutsu, expect a lot of ukemi before getting to the nitty-gritty. If it's a kenjutsu ryuha, expect a lot of explanation on tenouchi (gripping) and suburi.
2. For some ryuha there are no kihon. The kihon are all encapsulated in the shoden/shodan/omote (affix preliminary skill set name here)
3. Usually solo work isn't encouraged until the form has been learned properly and has been scrutinized by an instructor in the ryu. The reasoning behind this is to prevent bad habits forming, unless it's something that is very fundamental and can be easily replicated.

[wadoka]

Thanks for that information.

When would something like "kote gaeshi" come along and how would the process of transmission and practice take?

If there anything like synchronised training to a count or do people train in their pairings at their own level and speed?

[Kogusoku]

When kote-gaeshi in a jujutsu syllabus, again depends on the ryuha in question.
It is usually taught early on in most koryu jujutsu syllabi early on.

Depending on the ryuha and it's sensei, you could be shown the basic movement, safety parameters and then left to find out for yourself by training and analysing the technique by yourself.

Other sensei in another ryuha will go in depth after a certain amount of training, teaching actual combative rationale behind why the technique is executed in a certain fashion according to the kata in the ryuha. The concept taught to me for kote gaeshi in Japan was the "chain principle", pretty much like the old "Dem bones" song: wrist to forearm, forearm to elbow, elbow to upper arm, upper arm to shoulder, shoulder to shoulderblade.

If the wrist is manipulated at the correct angle, locking the joints, muscles, tendons and ligaments, the arm acts like a chain that has been twisted too many times and there is no more flexibility to it.

As with aikido there is an irimi (Linear & entering) method and a kaiten (rotational) method (We don't really use these terms officially, but they are sometimes generically used in the dojo) that are used both defensively and offensively (torite type techniques, where you use offensive tactics to either subdue an assailant or ambush an enemy)

One of the main points is to always have the joint manipulated and pointing to the rear of the enemy, never just to the side or in front of him.

Some ryuha have preliminary skill sets that teach basic "educational" principles pertaining to kuzushi, kansetsu-waza.
Tenjin Shinyo-ryu has such a preliminary skill set. It's called Te-hodoki and kote-gaeshi is one of the techniques in that skill set.
Within the tehodoki, kotegaeshi is taught at a very basic, mechanical level, teaching as above, kuzushi, nigirigata (gripping method) and kansetsu-waza.

In koryu jujutsu, almost every ryuha has a particular way of doing certain techniques that is individual to them. Sometimes the technique is done in such a way, that a large aerial ukemi as performed in aikido cannot be done.

Overall nigirigata for kote-gaeshi from ryuha to ryuha show roughly six different grip variations.

[oneya]

Perhaps just as interesting is where does practice for kote gaeshi begin in wado ryu..?

oneya

www.sannoya.com

[Kogusoku]

Perhaps just as interesting is where does practice for kote gaeshi begin in wado ryu..?

oneya

http://www.sannoya.com

That's your department mate, not mine.

The questions were rather over generalized, if not vague, which is why the mantra "It depends on the ryuha" was repeated.
I just tried to answer them to the best of my abilities based on my experiences.

[wadoka]

I am sure it depends on the club as well. My club is really small and I have gone through the likes of idori and kote gaeshi with beginners with less than 6 months under their white belts.

There is a printed syllabus but we also work around that as well.

[oneya]

Perhaps just as interesting is where does practice for kote gaeshi begin in wado ryu..?

oneya

http://www.sannoya.com

That's your department mate, not mine.

The questions were rather over generalized, if not vague, which is why the mantra "It depends on the ryuha" was repeated.
I just tried to answer them to the best of my abilities based on my experiences.

Indeed wado is my department kogusoku. The subject matter was, in part, kote gaeshi which is why I was asking the question seriously but softly softly in a general sense rather than directing it at any particular person. I thought I had clarified the ryuha mantra in question in my posting also. The ball was there to pick up or pass rather than to kick into touch, so I am wondering a little at your answer ?

oneya

www.sannoya.com

[WadoAJ]

perhaps oneya was trying to link your (kogusoku) stuff up with kote gaeshi taught in wadoryu. I guess our interests in koryu are born from the fact that this a huge part of wado's origin. That said, it might be interesting to reflect your observations to our experiences teaching kote gaeshi. I guess this is what oneya tried to accomplish, and oneya please correct me if i'm off here.

As for my take on this matter, I teach kote gaeshi at quite an early stage.

AJ

[oneya]

Hi AJ,

my question was more to the recognition of where, in the wado ryu system does the concept of body memory encounter anything like an initial kote gaeshi movement. I think it is there if we look for it in the process.

A long and current thread on the previous forum expressed our collective lament of the tiresome outpourings of the 'mixing is superior' to tradition people. A few battles with proponents of this ‘mixing’ view have been fruitless because they already know what they know even with meagre wado-ryu experience or knowledge. So it is a layman’s view that has its benefits because it reminds us – or at least, it reminds me – that we need to constantly review and revise our own understanding of the wado-ryu. Not only because I have regularly maintained that everything we do in wado ryu is nicely packed within its fundamental system as we know it, but more than this is its process is a continuously didactic experience where signposts need to be recognised along the way in its kihon, kata and kumite concepts, quite often by reflection and kaisetsu analysis, but more often in its eureka moments in the physical process of conflict. Kote Gaeshi is one such where we need to be open to the signs.

You will remember we once spoke of needing new eyes for Naihanchi kata because Pinan eyes were not altogether applicable. Again the Pinan kata processes are incremental so each one would teach something differently that we will find again at a later time in our practice. Just like the man said, ‘there are no secrets there is only training’ and the rest of this needs a dojo for training and some clarity.

oneya

http://www.sannoya.com