(Wado and) Okinawan Karate

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
Locked
claas
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:39 pm

(Wado and) Okinawan Karate

Post by claas »

Hi,

Tried to find a topic for Okinawan Karate, but was not able to do so, scrolling all of the titles. I remember there has been a few threads, but the topic names do not tell too much. :(
So I tried to use a label that hopefully describes the topic...

Here is a quite good youtube movie about Shorin Ryu Kyudokan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwdRDwSHwYc


Much of the principles described are the same as ours. Being of Kobayashi-lineage (Itosu->Chibana), I guess they could be a little closer to Wado than many other Shorin Ryu schools, in which Itosu's influence was smaller. Anyway, I recommend the video to anyone interested in any Karate.
Lasse Candé
Helsinki, Finland
claas
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:39 pm

Re: (Wado and) Okinawan Karate

Post by claas »

Perhaps this is the best thread for this.


"The Lost Book of Kushanku: The Old Testament of Karate"

https://classicalmartialarts.wordpress. ... of-karate/

This is a funny text and a good warning for people who are interested in karate history. I recommend the read, but only because you might later see the same claims made elsewhere.

This caused the writing of an open letter on facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/jonathan ... cation=ufi
An open letter of reply concerning a thorough article on the history of Karate
JANUARY 2 · PUBLIC
Dear Keegan sensei,
I felt compelled to write to you after reading an article you have written, containing various hypothesis concerning the origins of Okinawan Karate:
https://classicalmartialarts.wordpress. ... of-karate/
My name is Jonathan Bluestein. I am a martial arts teacher and researcher hailing from Israel. I practice and teach the Chinese martial arts of Xing Yi Quan and Pigua Zhang. I also practice Southern Mantis of the Jook Lum lineage. I furthermore have some background in traditional Shito-ryu Karate and Western Boxing. I am the author of a best-selling book titled ‘Research of Martial Arts’, spanning some 220,000 words. That being said, I believe my words on the subject have at least some merit, and I am hopeful you would read my opinion with care.
First I would like to tackle the claim that Xing Yi Quan is a “descendadnt of Baji Quan (formerly Ba Zi Quan), and that this was the art taught to Ji Jike (Ji Jike >> Cao Jiwu >> Dai Clan >> Li Luoneng >> modern Xing Yi Quan). Such a claim is absurd. I do not know of a single teacher of Xing Yi Quan who would agree on this point.
Your claim is supposedly substantiated by “enforced by the headmaster of Baji Quan”. I am not sure what that ought to mean. There are countless teachers of Baji Quan in China. One of them was my late teacher, master Zhou Jingxuan of Tianjin, widely acknowledged as a foremost teacher and authority on the art. He taught both Xing Yi Quan and Baji Quan (and many other arts, too), and did not believe in such myths. It is quite common in China for various corrupt andunworthy teachers to claim historical dominance, superiority, or origins of lineages or art different to theirs. That must have been the root of this confusion.
Xing Yi and Baji are similar in their focus on short-range fighting and explosive power generation, and being two Northern-Chinese martial arts they feature some identical stances, stepping patterns and share some techniques. But these arts are nonetheless very different in all respects and do not have the same historical origins. There is no need to cover all of that history here. I can simply refer you to an article I have written on the subject:
http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.co.il/ ... iquan.html
You are also most welcome to read the Wikipedia article about Xing Yi Quan, much of it I have written myself with the aid and support of various Xing Yi teacher of many different lineages:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xing_Yi_Quan
Be sure to pay attention to the lineage chart – the most extensive of its kind that I know of for this art:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xing_Yi_Q ... eage_chart
You can forget about Baji Quan being the same as the ‘Ba Zi Quan’ mentioned in general Qi Jiguang’s work, too. That is too far back in time – 16th century. Baji Quan has a history of no more than 250 years. Its assumed founder, Wu Zhong, lived in the 18th century.
To claim Qi Jiguang was “a pioneer of solo forms” training is silly. They existed long before him. He merely recorded those of his day, and those which he created. In fact, in his books (such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jixiao_Xinshu ) he refers to many arts that predated him and the number of movements in their forms. Which means he was no ‘pioneer’ of such methods. Regardless, many works before him referenced such methods.
Why and how do you assume that Ji Jike studied the manuals of general Qi Jiguang? They were not ‘common knowledge’ at the time. No internet or mass printing. Unlikely ‘coincidence’ that would have been. Also, I see no information in Qi Jiguang’s works that could have been relevant for the creation of Xin Yi. That does not make sense anyhow, if you check the links and facts I shared here beforehand.
The big spear influenced Xing Yi most prominently when Li Luoneng taught the art, and not in the generation of Ji Jike. You completely ignore (likely unaware) the fact that Dai Xin Yi, which is in the middle between Ji Jike and Li Luoneng, is not an art suited for the wielding of a big spear because of its very compact movements. It emphasizes the short staff instead.
If Ji Jike supposedly created Xin Yi in the Shaolin temple, why are there no Xin Yi lineages in Shaolin or that were handed out at any point in time by Shaolin monks? Why is it that Xin Yi Ba of Shaolin does NOT look like Dai Xin Yi or Xing Yi Quan, and if anything is remotely reminiscent of Xin Yi Liu He Quan? And how come Xin Yi Liu He Quan belongs to the Hui Muslim minority, a closed community at the time, while Shaolin is strictly Buddhist? The holes in such theories are everywhere.
There is NO RELATIONSHIP WAHTSOEVER between Okinawan Karate and Xing Yi Quan. Not historical, not technical, and not otherwise. Stop. It does not exist. The very foundations of Xing Yi Quan like the Zhan Zhuang and Wu Xing are nowhere in Okinawan Karate. Xing Yi is not a form-based art, and without these foundations it cannot work or be trained, at all. There is no possibility of simply learning a ‘Swallow form of Xing Yi’ or any other form without prior having extensively trained the ‘kihon’ of the art.
The Wansu or Empi Kata do not bear the slightest resemblance to the Xing Yi Quan I teach or any of the Xing Yi I know of. There are many things that point out to that, although anyone with two eyes can see this makes no sense. This kata, depending on the style of it practiced, may heavily feature Neko Ashi Dachi, Ge Dan Barai, striking with the sword of the plam in a straight path, a high Fu Hu Bu, a Gong Bu (Zenkutsu Dachi) with the feet wide apart, sideways hammer striking, striking downward while in Ma Bu (Shiko Dachi), and many many other elements that will never be found in Xing Yi quan. And no – IT DOES NOT AT THE LEAST RESEMBLE THE SWALLOW FORM IN XING YI, not any of its variations in any lineage. Honestly, I doubt you have ever even seen the latter form.
I can write another 40 pages on the problems with that article you have written, but I have neither the time or strength for that. Therefore I shall simply summarize some of the other problem points:
- Wang Zong Yue is not Kushanku.
- Wang Zong Yue is not considered by any serious practitioner of Taiji Quan to be the founder or originator of Taiji. The art was founded and created in Chen village, by other people.
- The 13 postures of Taiji have nothing to do with Okinawan Karate, whatsoever. They are not mentioned in Okinawan Karate and neither are they relevant to its body mechanics. The Taiji classics make for a very different martial art.
- The 13 postures of Taiji, their true essence can only be learned via Tui Shou (Push Hands) in the manner practiced in Taiji, which does not exist in Okinawan Karate.
- The ‘Snake Spits Out Its Tongue’ movement is very common in both Northern and Southern Chinese martial arts. It also exists in the Southern Mantis I practice, which is much closer to Okinawan Karate than Taiji Quan.
- ‘Turn to face 7 Stars’ is not a ‘block’ in Taiji Quan.
- Double jumping kicks are common in many Chinese martial arts, and are also featured in Suparimpei of Goju-ryu, with southern-Chinese origins.
I will just stop here. Too much to correct, unfortunately.
While I applaud your enthusiasm and willingness to do research and make nice theories, perhaps you should refrain from writings of ‘Chinese connections’ without having explored the Chinese arts in great depth.
My apologies if I had been too harsh in my criticism. I am sure you are a worthy teacher and karateka, even if we do not find agreement on these matters.
My advice would be to try and train for a period of at least a few months in the arts mentioned in your article - Baji, Taiji, and Xing Yi. I have trained in them all, and teach the latter as mentioned before. Once you study these a a bit, you will see I believe that there are notable and important differences between the three, and also between them and Okinawan Karate. I would suggest, instead of keeping this line of thought, to look more into Southern Mantis, especially of the Jook Lum lineage. This is where you are likely to find more interesting historical and technical similarities to your Karate.
Sincerely yours,
Shifu Jonathan Bluestein.
Pretty much all the serious-looking writings about karate history seem to paint a picture where not that much is known for certain. That's why something as huge as these Kushanku claims (or the huge claims on the Chinese side for that matter) always rings alarm bells.
Lasse Candé
Helsinki, Finland
Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Re: (Wado and) Okinawan Karate

Post by Gusei21 »

Put this in perspective.

Prior to WWII the population of Okinawa was about 300,000.

In what the Americans call the 'Battle for Okinawa the body count for the civilian population of Okinawa was very high.
The Japanese lost 77,000 soldiers just in that particular battle.
The Okinawan civilian body count was estimated to be as high as 150,000. So almost half the people on Okinawa died in that one battle.

This from wikipedia regarding the Battle for Okinawa.
The Japanese Imperial Army mobilized 1,780 middle school boys aged 14–17 years into front-line-service. They were named "Tekketsu Kinnotai" (ja:鉄血勤皇隊, Iron and Blood Imperial Corps). This mobilization was conducted by the ordinance of the Ministry of Army, not by law. The ordinances mobilized the student for a volunteer soldier for form's sake. However, in reality, the military authorities ordered schools to force almost all students to "volunteer" for soldiers. Sometimes they counterfeited the necessary documents of students. And about half of "Tekketsu Kinnotai" were killed such as in suicide attacks against a tank with bombs and in guerrilla operations.

So that one battle is responsible for much of what was lost in Okinawan karate history.

Think about it. All the good karate people were killed in that one battle.
All the books and records were destroyed.

That's one of the main reason there is so much confusion today regarding the history of Okinawan karate.
Bob Nash
Gary
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:14 pm
Location: South London, UK
Contact:

Re: (Wado and) Okinawan Karate

Post by Gary »

Gusei21 wrote:Put this in perspective.

Prior to WWII the population of Okinawa was about 300,000.

In what the Americans call the 'Battle for Okinawa the body count for the civilian population of Okinawa was very high.
The Japanese lost 77,000 soldiers just in that particular battle.
The Okinawan civilian body count was estimated to be as high as 150,000. So almost half the people on Okinawa died in that one battle.

This from wikipedia regarding the Battle for Okinawa.
The Japanese Imperial Army mobilized 1,780 middle school boys aged 14–17 years into front-line-service. They were named "Tekketsu Kinnotai" (ja:鉄血勤皇隊, Iron and Blood Imperial Corps). This mobilization was conducted by the ordinance of the Ministry of Army, not by law. The ordinances mobilized the student for a volunteer soldier for form's sake. However, in reality, the military authorities ordered schools to force almost all students to "volunteer" for soldiers. Sometimes they counterfeited the necessary documents of students. And about half of "Tekketsu Kinnotai" were killed such as in suicide attacks against a tank with bombs and in guerrilla operations.

So that one battle is responsible for much of what was lost in Okinawan karate history.

Think about it. All the good karate people were killed in that one battle.
All the books and records were destroyed.

That's one of the main reason there is so much confusion today regarding the history of Okinawan karate.
Even British history can be difficult to pin down!

Political satirist Ian Hislop made a great TV show a few years back about the fact that what we “take as read” is in fact wrong, or vastly exaggerated / underplayed.

Can you imagine what a mess we would be in if 50% of what we have as reference was taken out of the equation!
Gary Needham
Walton Wado Karate Club

清漣館双水執流英国稽古会
http://seirenkanuk.wordpress.com/
blackcat
Posts: 194
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: (Wado and) Okinawan Karate

Post by blackcat »

Hi Class

I think the author of that article is away with the fairies. I heard there might be a translation of Hiroshi Kinjo's last book coming soon so that will be far more reliable. In the meantime, I recommend Andreas Quast's writing to everyone who will listen - he has really done some excellent research and you can find an abridged version of his 'Karate 1.0' on Amazon or the full text on Lulu. Read alongside Kerr's 'Okinawa: a history of an island nation' I think it builds up a good picture of the origins of karate as we know it. He has skillfully written a huge book on the subject with hardly a mention of 'karate'.

As for Higa's dojo, I think that would be a fantastic experience to go there. If you can get 4OD where you live then the British TV chef Jamie Oliver made a trip to meet him last year: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/jami ... /61404-002

Ben
Locked