Kihon hachihonme

[metalfury]

Hello,

I've just been reading the Kuzushi Waza topic with interest and from it I have a question that is slightly off topic regarding Kihon 8.



This is a relatively new Kihon for me and I have been shown two different approaches to this:

• The first method I was taught maintains some pressure with the controlling knee and then the last double shuto hand movements are a strike to chest (but with the opponent’s arm protecting themselves). A change in stance allows a great deal of power generation in this strike. I very well may be wrong on this, but I think that the pressure on the knee is released at the time of the shuto strike with a change in the stance (Shikodachi - zenkutsodachi?)

• The second method seems to have increasing pressure/movement with the controlling knee at each stage of the kihon following the head block (I found this much more unbalancing as the recipient!). Then the last hand movements are used to control the opponent’s arm and then push them away rather than strike the chest.

Apologies if I've misinterpreted the techniques and I hope I have described the approaches well enough. I may just of been getting the leg/knee movements wrong in the first approach, but there was a definite difference in emphasis between the double shuto strike or a control and push.

I'm interested to know what peoples opinions are about the two different approaches, particularly if you've used both. If I've got the wrong end of the stick thinking that there is any real difference feel free to put me right/ shoot me down!

I suppose the bigger question is how much flexibility is there in kihon gumite providing you are using Wado principles of movement?

Thanks

MF

[WadoAJ]

Hi MF,

funny to see that picture pop up. It is an extract from the book I (we) am still writing/finishing at the moment. The picture itself is an example of how to apply kuzushi with the upperleg. Perhaps you have posted it because of the connection to the kuzushi thread, it is not an image taken from the kihon gumite series. Also, in case of hachihonme ukemi would be in migi gamae. Another point to note that I'm controlling ukemi's (Ishikawa Hiroki) right arm with my left hand and applying pressure at his left shoulder with my other hand. They are not both on ukemi's right hand like in kg8.

Anyway, you mentioned changing from shiko to zenkutsu dachi and striking? why would you strike his kamae? and why change to zenkutsu dachi? never heard of this method before.
the other one sounds more like what I'm doing.

as for differences in approach, I guess stiking the leg or outside the leg is the best of variations that I have seen. don't know any other ones as for omote gata.

AJ

[Gary]

Hello,

I've just been reading the Kuzushi Waza topic with interest and from it I have a question that is slightly off topic regarding Kihon 8.

This is a relatively new Kihon for me and I have been shown two different approaches to this:

• The first method I was taught maintains some pressure with the controlling knee and then the last double shuto hand movements are a strike to chest (but with the opponent’s arm protecting themselves). A change in stance allows a great deal of power generation in this strike. I very well may be wrong on this, but I think that the pressure on the knee is released at the time of the shuto strike with a change in the stance (Shikodachi - zenkutsodachi?)

• The second method seems to have increasing pressure/movement with the controlling knee at each stage of the kihon following the head block (I found this much more unbalancing as the recipient!). Then the last hand movements are used to control the opponent’s arm and then push them away rather than strike the chest.

Apologies if I've misinterpreted the techniques and I hope I have described the approaches well enough. I may just of been getting the leg/knee movements wrong in the first approach, but there was a definite difference in emphasis between the double shuto strike or a control and push.

I'm interested to know what peoples opinions are about the two different approaches, particularly if you've used both. If I've got the wrong end of the stick thinking that there is any real difference feel free to put me right/ shoot me down!

I suppose the bigger question is how much flexibility is there in kihon gumite providing you are using Wado principles of movement?

Thanks

MF

Hi MF - Good to catch up at the weekend.

I do it (or at least try) more like you describe the second version I think.

Certainly it seems to be more akin to what Shimura sensei was teaching at the Manchester course and emphasis was placed on keeping pressure on the knee as you control the opponents arm.

I found this footage of Takagi sensei doing it this way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBNtBu68aI0

Gary

[metalfury]

The picture itself is an example of how to apply kuzushi with the upperleg. Perhaps you have posted it because of the connection to the kuzushi thread..... it is not an image taken from the kihon gumite series.

Hello AJ, thanks for your reply

Yes that's correct; I saw it on the kuzushi linkon that thread. It made me think of Kihon 8, and mistakenly I thought it was that technique - apologies for muddying the question.

Here's a more appropriate photo from the same site:

Anyway, you mentioned changing from shiko to zenkutsu dachi and striking? why would you strike his kamae? and why change to zenkutsu dachi? never heard of this method before.
the other one sounds more like what I'm doing.

My thinking was that you would be in a parallel stance for an elbow strike and then open up into a front stance for a double shuto strike; being relatively close, the change in stance would help to generate power for the strike.

The changes in stance may well be a complete missunderstanding on my part so might not be worth pursuing. Maybe that the stances and use of the controlling knee are exactly the same in both methods, however in my verylimited experience of the technique there was a version that involved a powerful strike with limited controlling of the leg and a version that controlled the leg throughout (with increasing pressure/movement) and had a control/push with the last shutos.

This is a new technique for me; so to be honest I don't know why you would strike in the first option or finish by controling the arm with the second option. Having been on the receiving end of the strike, it certainly feels powerful!

I look forward to hearing more about your book.

MF

[WadoAJ]

hI MF,

thanks for your comments.
As for the book, want to digest a little more before I say I really don't edit the text anymore. Don't have time to sufficiently focus on completion and there is no money at the moment either..

The other image (of my sensei) you posted is a 'screengrab' from my sensei's DVD. anyway, could not exactly read it from your post but that image is also not zenkutsu dachi. The lower body is maintained while twisting the upper body. At the time pressure is applied with morote shuto, the lower body and center of gravity should maintain low. on the other hand there should be weight in your shuto pressing into the opponent, but not leaning. It is difficult to explain.

AJ

[metalfury]

Hi MF - Good to catch up at the weekend.

I do it (or at least try) more like you describe the second version I think.

Certainly it seems to be more akin to what Shimura sensei was teaching at the Manchester course and emphasis was placed on keeping pressure on the knee as you control the opponents arm.

I found this footage of Takagi sensei doing it this way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBNtBu68aI0

Gary

Hello Gary,

Yes it was good to catch up; I thoroughly enjoyed the course and it has given me lots to think about and work on!

I was training with Jack at the weekend and he was passing on some of the details of how Shimura Sensei and yourself perform the technique. Unfortunately we we're not able to spend a great deal of time on it, hence my unanswered questions and lack of knowledge ;-)

The fun filters at work block youtube, but I will look at the link later tonight.

Cheers

Rob

[metalfury]

The lower body is maintained while twisting the upper body. At the time pressure is applied with morote shuto, the lower body and center of gravity should maintain low. on the other hand there should be weight in your shuto pressing into the opponent, but not leaning. It is difficult to explain.

Thanks AJ, That helps a lot. Disregard my thoughts on the changing stance!

[wadoka]

Ah, a touch of naihanchi.

[claas]

I believe in Renmei very often a method of unbalancing from the outside while controlling with the knee from the inside is used. In Wadokai I believe very often a method of slightly lifting the opponents forearm with the elbow while maintaining a straight back and then putting slight pressure with the shuto side of the right forearm is used.

[Gusei21]

Hi there,

Talking about kuzushi I wanted to add my two cents since I did not see anyone mention the following. Perhaps no one talks about it because it is common knowledge? And Gary brought up Takagi Sensei's clip so I want to talk about what Takagi Sensei is doing but is not obvious by just watching the video.

Using the end of kk8 as an example, it is not enough to place your knee in position X and put your hands on position Y. The trick (art) is in how you are using your muscles/body when you are placing them in position x and y.
The placement has to be done with full body connection.
What that means for the hands is this: you need to connect your hand with your body. If you just push with your hands it is worthless.
You need to activate the muscles that you activate when you do armpit farts. Those armpit fart muscles connect the hand to the arm to the body.
And only then can you effectively trap the person. That in my opinion is the purpose of the opening movement of Kushanku and Naihanchi. It has nothing to do with 'look ma, I have no weapons..'' that is stupid.
It has to do with developing the ability to connect the arms to the body. This is a jujitsu exercise that teaches total body connection. Don't you think it odd that Wado has that opening movement in both Kushanku and Naihanchi unlike the other styles? Perhaps Otsuka Sensei was trying to hammer something home?

The leg bit. The only way to connect the knee to the body is to pull with the hamstrings. You can't just push your knee into your opponent. You have to pull with your hamstring and only then can you connect with your body and displace his center to establish solid kuzushi.

Is it possible to establish kuzushi without this? Of course. But we are talking about degrees of quality here. We want to establish total kuzushi at that point so we can have the space in time to draw out our tanto to kill him.

Anyway, that is what Takagi Sensei is doing and that is what I have been taught to do and it is totally in line with the movements of Shindo Yoshin ryu as I have learned them.

I apologize if I am stating the obvious...

Gusei21