Tobikomi zuki-nagashi zuki

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
Rayedin
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Tobikomi zuki-nagashi zuki

Post by Rayedin »

Hi all,
I,m fairly new to wado, so if this sounds like a silly question please ignore it!, my background is Judo/Jujitsu so i thought with wado having the strong influence of the koryu jujitsu it along with Judo would be a good way for me personaly to link back to jujitsu of old. and i have to say i'm loving every session.
But..i can see holes.(though there is in all arts)
I can see the sound principles of both tobikomi zuki and its lead into nagashi zuki, but asides from being training tools to create muscle memory for the principles of wado, i can't see them as a practicle application. Should you be fast enough and Uke slow enough then yes, but should you not then the stance leaves you wide open for ashi waza, far to much weight concentrated on the leading leg and the lean into the technique would only serve to make ashi waza that little easier.
As these seem only to be found in Wado, why?
wadoka
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Re: Tobikomi zuki-nagashi zuki

Post by wadoka »

Hello Ray

The practical application depends on an appropriate situation. If done in the realms of points sparring then the usual distance that people try to apply it is far too long and only with the mind of gaining a wazari for example.

The amount of lean is not really what is important as opposed the timing and using it in the correct distance.

I believe it was kusotare on the previous forum that pointed out that it was a 'finishing' technique.

From my perspective, you should already be in a situation and distance to land an effective strike, the extra body movement is to add to the strike and not to reach.

Also, even as you move to strike, you should not have the thought of the elongated end position of the kihon versions of tobikomi or nagashi zuki. The decision and execution is part of the process.
Rayedin
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Re: Tobikomi zuki-nagashi zuki

Post by Rayedin »

Sounds good,
so whilst practicing the techniques as kihon, getting the timing and form correct really just builds the required muscle memory, and when in actual use, the stance could be shortend to leave less weight on the advanced foot, so long as the timing and distance is spot on, and the technique will still be tobikomi-nagashi zuki.

Though before coming back to Wado i generaly thought of boxing type punches as tried and tested therfore more practicle, i do like the hip movement and shifting off the line in nagashi zuki, i can see it taking some time to change my ways, to the point i can make it part of my repetoire though, but definatly enjoying the journey!.
Lots more questions to come, every time i rei out of the dojo i've several more. i,m a fish out of water at the moment so the more i can learn to help me improve the better.
Thanks.
Ray
WadoAJ
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Re: Tobikomi zuki-nagashi zuki

Post by WadoAJ »

Hi Ray,

Welcome to the forum. I hope you can enjoy the discussions. As for my take on your questions, it appears to me that you are mixing up a method and the application of elements/principles contained in those methods. I mean, it sounds like you want to use omote gata directly?


@wadoka, I recall Kusotare's words where about junzuki no tsukkomi.


AJ
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Rayedin
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Re: Tobikomi zuki-nagashi zuki

Post by Rayedin »

Hi AJ,
Thanks, what i really should have done first is look through the posts on the other forum and a read through your website.
Lesson learned!
WadoAJ
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Re: Tobikomi zuki-nagashi zuki

Post by WadoAJ »

Rayedin wrote:Hi AJ,
Thanks, what i really should have done first is look through the posts on the other forum and a read through your website.
Lesson learned!
Hi Ray,

you learn quickly ;) hopefully you can manage to get those principles applied quickly in the ever changing situation.

Although my answer was quite basic, if you look at your question from an functional point (application of principle) of view you have raised quite an interesting question.

AJ
AJ van Dijk

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General Secretary FEW Federation European Wadokai
http://www.WadokaiOnline.com - Wado Books // Wado DVDs
http://www.wadokai.nl
http://www.fewkarate.com
oneya
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Re: Tobikomi zuki-nagashi zuki

Post by oneya »

Hi Ray,

It is a simple matter of understanding the difference between form and function - between the tool and its uses and usage. If you take kata for instance where it is a matter of the kata (form) and its kaisetsu (analysis of its uses) and its usage (Ohyo kumite and on to Jiyu kumite). Everything is part of the process of Wado ryu so everything is linked in some way to everything else. The 'holes' you find have their 'lifespan' in your not understanding. Once you know and understand it is not possible to not know or not understand. The more you understand the more the 'holes' diminish in size until they disappear - and we are all working towards that moment.


Have fun

oneya

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Rayedin
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Re: Tobikomi zuki-nagashi zuki

Post by Rayedin »

Good answer sir! i liked that.
Aristeas
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Re: Tobikomi zuki-nagashi zuki

Post by Aristeas »

I've been thinking about the 'problem' with Nagashi-zuki for more than 30 years, and comparing it to the Iai-do Seteikata Uke-Nagashi and the 'problem' with that technique for nearly 20 years.

The big issue for me with nagashi-ziuki was that while I could see that it was meant to teach good taisabaki, and getting your body out of the way of the oncoming opponent there still seemed to be something missing. The strike with the fist felt more like a push, the final stance/position was too static, too fixed.

The Iai-do Seteikata Uke-Nagashi is a similar technique, from the same sword-based beginnings as Ohtsuka's Wado. From the kneeling position it's a rising block to a standing opponent, followed by a retreating-back-foot step to the classic nagashi-zuki stance, while bringing the sword down in a strong kesa-giri type cut through the opponents body from the neck to under the opposite arm. Which seemed a very large movement to be doing at a very close range. It seemed to be overplaying your hand so-to-speak.

Recently I had the chance to discuss this with my original sensei and in conversation the veil finally lifted. The movement in nagashi-zuki is the same movement as the sword technique, getting your whole body outside of the line of the incoming cut, obviously the first and most important thing to avoid a short future. The second movement, in Wado the 'pushing' strike, is, in fact, the right sword technique, simply running the edge of the sword (or even a knife) along the side of the opponent's neck, cutting the carotid artery.

The value of both techniques, nagashi-zuki in Wado, uke-nagashi in Iai, is obviously enormous in their respective contributions to the two arts. But underlying both is a simple application of taisabaki and a 'gentle' close range 'pushing' use of a blade. That's the original application, I think.

Beyond that I do know this. Nagashi-zuki (and taisabaki) gave me a huge advantage in learning how to do uke-nagashi. Uke-naggashi took my understanding of nagashi-zuki as an emblematic Wado technique much further than I could have gone without it. And it only took thirty years to figure that out. But thinking about it for all that time taught me a whole lot of other things along the way.
WadoAJ
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Re: Tobikomi zuki-nagashi zuki

Post by WadoAJ »

hi aristeas

could you put up a video of the uke nagashi you are referring two? I guess that makes your post more clear for those who dont know the particular kata.


AJ
AJ van Dijk

President & Chief Instructor Wadokai Holland
General Secretary FEW Federation European Wadokai
http://www.WadokaiOnline.com - Wado Books // Wado DVDs
http://www.wadokai.nl
http://www.fewkarate.com
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