Kihon kumite timing

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
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Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Kihon kumite timing

Post by Gusei21 »

I found this passage interesting from an interview by Okumura Sensei of Aikido. He trained under Uyeshiba for many years.
I find it fascinating because this is what I see in Kihon Kumite.
There is in theory sen, sen no sen, go no sen, etc.
In traditional kata and in things like kumite gata Otsuka Sensei showed different timing.
But in kihon kumite we only have 1 timing.
Why?

Perhaps because of this? Makes perfect sense to me. I see the kihon kumite timing as a higher level of timing. It goes beyond the generic sen stuff. In sword play we want to induce an attack to create an opening for the kill. This is high level sword play. So even though we are not 'attacking', our non attack is an attack. But we are not just standing there waiting passively for an attack. We are for all intent and purpose truly attacking. It's subtle. So in the end there is only sen. Just not the average sen most people talk about.

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“Don’t wait until something important happens and then move, don’t anticipate and move, call the opponent towards you. In other words, take the initiative from the beginning. This is Aikido.”
Shigenobu Okumura sensei

Q: Is this the same as “Go-no-sen” (後の先)?

A: No, it’s different. At first glance it appears to be “Go-no-sen”, but O-Sensei said “You cannot divide timing into three (“Sen-sen-no-sen” / 先先の先, “Tai-no-sen” / 対の先, “Go-no-sen” / 後の先). That’s no good for Aikido. There is only one kind of timing in Aikido, that is to always take the initiative.”. This is an area that is difficult to explain. It’s just that your psychological state is different. I was told “For that reason, Aikido does not have attacking techniques, they are unnecessary”. So, in my thinking it is that form appears to be “Go-no-sen”, but in your feeling it is “Sen-sen-no-sen”.

Q: I think that I see the nuance, but it’s very difficult, isn’t it?

A: Yes it is. Since I have been doing Kendo since I was a child it was hard to get rid of the habit of “Sen-no-sen”. One time, when I and Nao Sonoda-san (園田直), who was working at the Foreign Ministry, went to the Founder and asked “After all, is Go-no-sen really no good (for Aikido)?”, he scolded us, saying “How long have you been doing this?”. (laughing)

Full interview translated by Chris Li.
http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/int ... 2/#more-46
Bob Nash
oneya
Posts: 857
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: Mornington Victoria Australia

Re: Kihon kumite timing

Post by oneya »

Gusei21 wrote:I found this passage interesting from an interview by Okumura Sensei of Aikido. He trained under Uyeshiba for many years.
I find it fascinating because this is what I see in Kihon Kumite.
There is in theory sen, sen no sen, go no sen, etc.
In traditional kata and in things like kumite gata Otsuka Sensei showed different timing.
But in kihon kumite we only have 1 timing.
Why?

Perhaps because of this? Makes perfect sense to me. I see the kihon kumite timing as a higher level of timing. It goes beyond the generic sen stuff. In sword play we want to induce an attack to create an opening for the kill. This is high level sword play. So even though we are not 'attacking', our non attack is an attack. But we are not just standing there waiting passively for an attack. We are for all intent and purpose truly attacking. It's subtle. So in the end there is only sen. Just not the average sen most people talk about.

-
Perhaps we need to use another level of terminology Bob. I think if we talk in terms of time and timing Bob then we can talk of ‘mitsu no sen’ as an abstract but if we talk in terms of te then we only have machite or kakete from a budo aspect. At various levels of wado practice we have kata and Wado kihon kumite is also kata but within this it is often kata of much weightier but abstract substances like perception and  sensing beyond the physical. Machite and kakete are part of this and of the two aspects kakete has only one timing. While a key is given as sente, holding ‘sente’ again is not just something that arrives without much practice. Our western orientation will give us ‘seizing the initiative’ as a reasonable translation to play with but in the cold truth matter of instant life or death of swordplay we are in a whole different world of reasonable translation.

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
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