Internal Power

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Re: Internal Power

Post by Gusei21 »

Igor,

Is it my imagination or are you turning into a troll?

'We believe?' Seriously? Don't speak for me. It should read 'I believe'.
Or more accurately, 'I believe because I am being a dumbass'....
Bob Nash
wadoka
Site Admin
Posts: 696
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:38 am
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset, UK.
Contact:

Re: Internal Power

Post by wadoka »

Easy, those SAP developments taking their toll :-)
Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Re: Internal Power

Post by Gusei21 »

wadoka wrote:Easy, those SAP developments taking their toll :-)
Yeah ok...I am a bit overloaded....if he wasn't my friend I would call him worst names....

And I did not call him a dumbass. I said he was being a dumbass - if that is any consolation.

Toby Threadgill and I was talking a while back about having ways to filter or weed people out.
What we do requires some level of physical talent and intellect.
So for example if someone tells me that Tetsuzan Kuroda is amazing then I know where to place them. (I would want to sit down and chat)
If someone tells me that Kenji Ushiro is amazing then I also know where to place them. ( I would roll my eyes and keep walking)
If someone can't tell that Otsuka Sensei is special by looking at his movements then that speaks volumes about his martial intellect.
In terms of Otsuka Sensei it is very evident that he has the ability to move from point a to point be with minimal body movement unlike most other karate masters.
He has no openings.
He has the ability to cut things very close.
Yes, much of the potential damage that he can create is implied in that he does not take the technique to its logical conclusion - he leaves that to the viewer.
So if the viewer cannot see any of this and appreciate it immediately then they are a mental lightweight when it comes to martial arts.
There is no belief required in any of this. You see, you process and you either understand it or you don't.
To want to debate or even ponder this point shows your level of martial intelligence which in my opinion would be nonexistent unless you happen to be Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder but I think those brothers could tell by the sounds he doesn't make.
Bob Nash
kyudo
Posts: 224
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:00 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Internal Power

Post by kyudo »

Gusei21 wrote:Is it my imagination or are you turning into a troll?.
Bob, I don't want to be a pain in the ass, but you're kind of proving my point.

Years ago I got kicked off the karate forum on 24fightingchickens.com. Not a huge loss, but an interesting experience. The owner, Rob Redmond, kicked me off that forum because I held some opinions that apparently didn't fit his belief. Or the other way round, according to him. It was the first time I was ever called a troll, like you just did for the second time.

Ironically, when I just checked his website to see if it still exists, I immediately came across an article about the role of beliefs in karate:
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2013/ ... up-karate/
Bottom line:
There is one thing at which karate is very effective. Karate is very effective for advertising karate myths.
I can't say I fully agree with him, but he does make some valid points...
Gusei21 wrote:If someone can't tell that Otsuka Sensei is special
Like I said, I believe Otsuka sensei WAS special. Unfortunately, he passed away. So all information is strictly third or fourth hand. So then, what is there to go by? I could say that his ability to move was quite special, as can be seen on video. But then that opinion is based on my beliefs, right? Not to go into a metaphysical discussion, but I don't think we're talking about facts here, merely beliefs. Beliefs that, by the way, you and I happen to share. The only difference is that you call them facts. Which might very well be the case for you, since you actually trained with the man.
A fact, to me, is when a man hits me with more power than his arms can possibly produce. Or when a man moves so fast that I'm unable to stop him. I've experienced it first hand, though not from Otsuka sensei. Fact, no belief. It's Wado. And it's pretty damn cool. So I have no problem accepting the accompanying beliefs if I can learn something. But I have to call a spade a spade...

Anyway, I'm off again for a while, because it is not my intention to derail this interesting thread. Don't mind me and keep it going please...
Igor Asselbergs
http://kyudokan.nl/
oneya
Posts: 857
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: Mornington Victoria Australia

Re: Internal Power

Post by oneya »

Hi Igor,

Suzuki once said: "Just because someone asks a question doesn't mean they deserve an answer." You are proving his point.

On the matter of 'belief': Any dictionary will tell you that ‘belief’ is a mental condition. I don't doubt this for one second.

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Re: Internal Power

Post by Gusei21 »

Ellis Amdur published an essay a while back and I posted a link.
I wanted to highlight a few paragraphs that I feel is important about this whole study of internal power as it relates to Wado ryu and martial arts in general.

Then later today or tomorrow I want to add a post or two to elaborate on a few ideas then in the next day or two I will post something on the historical flow of these ideas into Japanese martial arts in general and in Wado by way of Yoshin ryu in particular and then bring my contribution to an end and just focus on kihon and kata for the next few months.

Here is Amdur Sensei on the study of internal power.

Like traditional instructors of almost any art in China and Japan, teachers of internal strength or other high-level martial arts techniques will only offer such training to students who consider everything they do of such importance that they incessantly practice even the trivial solo exercises that seem far divorced from form and fighting applications; that they take any statement, no matter how obscure and gnomic, as holding some essential knowledge. Rather than being spoon-fed, you must scrabble in the dirt to pick up the rare grains that are thrown down. Some in the West may find such a concept outrageous, but what I have found over the years is that if you continue to appear before the teacher, increasingly nourished by such mean fare, you may eventually be ushered to the table where a banquet awaits.

Consider that, until recently, these skills were the equivalent to plans for a Predator Drone or "stealth fighter." They would only be offered to someone considered both worthwhile and trustworthy. The problem for many in such traditional settings was and is that you may be half-starved before being initiated, if that happens at all. Many end up so disheartened that they quit. Others find teachers who are content to keep the real meal to themselves, throwing only scraps to their students, preferring to manipulate them so that they have loyal followers rather than successors. In truth, many allegedly great teachers have nothing more than such scraps to offer. On the other hand, people find the teachers they are meant to find. If you are being cheated by a teacher and do not recognize it, then, from one perspective, you've found exactly the teacher you are suited for.

This was once a world in which one truly threw one's life away in hopes of gaining treasure, and sincerity was measured by the willingness of a student to risk all to acquire such skills. And among of the things that one risked is that, having given all, you might be cast aside in the dust yourself. That such a teaching method may perhaps no longer be suited to the current age does not negate the fact that through it, generation after generation, it created martial artists like Yagyu Tajima no Kami, Takenouchi Hisamori, Takeda Sokaku, and Ueshiba Morihei, men who were tempered like fine steel, quite different from the iron men, the ordinary fighters of their era.

One final point: the jury is still out for me whether open teaching produces a greater number of high-level students. To be sure, "basic training," whether in the military or civilian situations, requires meticulous instruction, for such information must be for anyone and everyone in one's cadre. High-level training, however, requires high-level people, and high-level skills will only be acquired by an elite few -- those who are both innately talented, and obsessively, pervasively committed. I have heard from several teachers who are diligent and open, some of whom are instructors of koryu and others of internal training methodologies, who carry the attitude that they will hide nothing, that "there are no secrets." Yet, each has told me that although they have a lot of people studying, they only have one or two students. It is possible that, although the "open" teacher provides a more pleasant, psychologically supportive training environment, he or she may have, at the end, the same number of great students: one or two. "Steal the technique" is not only something one has to do with a teacher like Takeda Sokaku or Ueshiba Morihei, who allegedly shows a technique only once; it also occurs with any teacher, because explanation is not experiential. One has to breathe in the skills through the pores, not the ears.
Bob Nash
Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Re: Internal Power

Post by Gusei21 »

Shuto uke - Wado Style

The other day I made an observation about the Wado blocks. They are incredibly sophisticated and is based on internal theory – specifically spiraling or as the Chinese say, Chansijin.
You can do these sophisticated blocks at various levels of sophistication. Looking at the first block in kk1 or the first blocks in kk8 and kk9 these blocks have the following in common: rotation and revolution.

The forearm rotates (rotation) – the elbows bend like a hinge (revolution). Why is this a big deal? Because the combination of rotation and revolution at impact minimizes the amount of force that enters the body from the attack. The attack due to the rotation/revolution property of the block gets redirected on a tangent. No force can penetrate a rotating/revolving cylinder. All force gets redirected orthogonally. A punch gets redirected. A grab causes kuzushi on contact. (Easter Egg…)

Just focusing on the arm itself does not make this worthy of the internal power realm. It gets classified as internal power only when the blocker also has manifested the following properties – connected body/unified body and cross body connection. For it to be a true spiral the blocking hand must be powered by the opposite leg with energy going up and the other hand being pulled in via the opposite leg being drawn down. The up energy and down energy of the legs are initiated by the corkscrewing action in the arms and legs. Yin and Yang must be present for true spiraling to occur. And when this occurs it is truly not possible for any force to enter the blocker and any force that tries to enter the blocker gets sent away on a tangent. Anything less than this and it is not full blown internal power.

Another key point is that the rotation/revolution must occur before impact with the attack. It can’t start after. It can’t happen at the same time. The rotational movement must occur before the contact in order to initiate a tangent for the attack.

So on to shuto uke. In the Wado shuto uke the contact point is the thumb side of the blocking arm. Most other karate styles use the pinky side of the hand. This is because they do not corkscrew the block. They block and allow the resultant force to enter their body thus potentially disrupting their center.
In Wado we block with the thumb side – and we are rotating just prior to impact.

Toru Arakawa Sensei at every seminar always clearly shows and demonstrates the cross body connection by illustrating the point that the shuto uke is powered by the back leg. The back leg (head of the femur in the rear leg) rotates in the hip socket as the blocking hand rotates at impact. This cross body action not only supports the blocking hand, it allows the blocker to enter the opponent’s space. Cross body connection alone does not IP (internal power) make. You also need to have a unified body as manifested by Heaven Earth Man and six directions. Once you have that then you have a more profound effect on your opponent.

This so called corkscrewing block is everywhere in our practice. At a glance:
- KK1 first block, second block right hand – not really a block per say but it qualifies (left hand is a spiraling punch which is a separate sophisticated subject matter in its own right).
- KK2 first block, second block of the kick
- KK3 first block
- KK4 first block, second block, the attack with left hand to the spot just above the elbow
- KK5 first block, second block
- KK6 first block, second block
- KK7 first block, hit with the right hand to the carotid artery is a spiraling attack
- KK8 first block, second block
- KK9 first block, second block with right osae uke and spiraling punch with left hand.
- KK10 first block
-
All of this if done with a conditioned connected body capable of issuing up/down energy, cross body connection turns you in a true force of internal power.

The stuff we do in Wado is truly amazing and potentially sophisticated. It has its internal roots not in Okinawan Karate but in the swordsmanship and jujitsu of classical Japanese martial arts.
Bob Nash
JuhaR
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 7:06 am

Re: Internal Power

Post by JuhaR »

Gusei21 wrote:The back leg (head of the femur in the rear leg) rotates in the hip socket as the blocking hand rotates at impact. This cross body action not only supports the blocking hand, it allows the blocker to enter the opponent’s space.
I assume the same mechanics is present in e.g. the fourth (?) movement of Pinan yondan where you step in after the jujiuke to mahanmi no nekoashi dachi and perform sotouke jodan? Back leg rotates as the sotouke goes "up". Aren't there a hell of a lot of different directions here? You enter, going straight ahead. Back leg cork screws counter clockwise. Upper body rotates clockwise, but the hips are actually rotated counter clockwise so that it looks to the outside that there isn't any rotation. Outwardly the sum of these two opposite movements seem to negate each other, but in fact they don't, the movement is really there, but doesen't show (I realize I am probably not making any sense, and should stop writing...) Of course the blocking hand rotates, but so does the other hand as well. Front leg goes straight ahead, but there is rotation at the hip joint, as the hips/pelvis rotates. There is also downward movement as the whole body sinks at the completion of the technique (or process?). In, down, rotations. Am I on the right track here?

On more thing. Hip/upper body rotation. When watching people doing naihanchi the hips are rotating in the same directions as the upper body. Is there any merit in doing an opposite rotation of the hips? I mean that while the upper body (from the navel and upwards) rotates to the right, the lower part (below the navel and the hips/pelvis) are rotated to the opposit direction. A bit what Ohgami sensei calls for double moment.
Juha Rantakari
Helsinki, Finland
Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Re: Internal Power

Post by Gusei21 »

JuhaR wrote:
I assume the same mechanics is present in e.g. the fourth (?) movement of Pinan yondan where you step in after the jujiuke to mahanmi no nekoashi dachi and perform sotouke jodan? Back leg rotates as the sotouke goes "up". Aren't there a hell of a lot of different directions here. Am I on the right track here?

On more thing. Hip/upper body rotation. When watching people doing naihanchi the hips are rotating in the same directions as the upper body. Is there any merit in doing an opposite rotation of the hips? I mean that while the upper body (from the navel and upwards) rotates to the right, the lower part (below the navel and the hips/pelvis) are rotated to the opposit direction. A bit what Ohgami sensei calls for double moment.
Hi

First in Wadokai we teach that 4th movement to be hanmi, not mahanmi. Mahanmi would be the first two movements. Mahanmi also shows up later near the end.
Yes, lots of stuff going on.

In Naihanchi the hips should not move if you can help it. The waist moves. If the hips move too much then the power goes zip....
So you do not intentionally move the hips opposite direction or otherwise.
Bob Nash
Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Re: Internal Power

Post by Gusei21 »

Up/down Yin Yang In Yo Ho

I wanted to make another observation about Wado that sets us apart from the other karate styles.
It has to do with how we separate kata practice from kata usage.

Specifically I am talking about how for example in our Pinans we have double blocks but we are taught not to use them in application.
Same goes for the first movement of Chinto or the last movement in Seishan. There are no double blocks in Wado.
Ok. But why? All the other styles use double blocks. Why are we so anti double block. My guess and this is a guess, is that because Otsuka Sensei understood internal power he had to take this stance.

First a bit of background about yin/yang or in/yo. In Yo is the Japanese equivalent of yin yang.
Otsuka Sensei clearly stated that the only way to understand the logic/reasoning of Wado was thru Heaven Earth Man. The yin yang symbol is Heaven Earth Man. The circle. Inside the circle is a white section and a black section. It is separated by a line. The black entity and the white entity sort of look like two tadpoles. The black tadpole has a white eye and the white tadpole has a black eye.

The white is Heaven. The black is Earth. The line is Man. Heaven has a bit of Earth. Earth has a bit of Heaven. That is what the symbol means.
So Heaven Earth Man or In Yo ho (ho meaning method).

All double blocks have yin and yang when done properly. An upward double block (done with IP) has the head of both femurs rotating outward and the head of both humerus rotating also outward. The front of the body is in yang and the back is in yin. Yang being male, active, power, issuing. Yin being female, passive, receiving. Yin and Yang at the same time but on opposite sides. Powerful when done correctly. Downward blocks are the opposite. Head of femur rotates in. The head of the humerus rotates in. The front is yin, the back is yang. Again, powerful. But in this model both up and down are both either all open (up) or all closed (in).

It’s sort of like going to the casino and putting all of your chips on either black or red. This analogy will make sense in a moment.

In Wado we don’t do this when we go to use it. We only have single sided blocks. One side blocks while the other side is free to do what it wants. In the case of a left handed jodan uke the right leg corkscrews up and sends energy up and around the body and issues it out the rising arm in a cross body connection.
The left leg corkscrews down which powers the right arm down. So you have on the same side both yin and yang being exhibited as opposed to the other double block model where you have either all yin or all yang on front or back.

When you express yin yang or in yo both front and back then you remain balanced. You are not committed all in or all out. You can adjust, you can move, you can alter, you can modify. The block can convert to punch, the punch can convert to a block. You remain in the center of your universe in balance at all times.
So back to the casino metaphor. You do not place all your chips on either red or black. You are splitting them 50/50.

From an internal power perspective, more profound. From a pure combat perspective - smarter.
Always having the ability to express in yo or yin and yang simultaneously will always place you in an advantageous position in battle.
Hence in Wado there are no double blocks. It is more advantageous to express in yo all around.
Again, as Otsuka Sensei said, you can’t understand Wado unless you can wrap your head around Heaven Earth Man.
Bob Nash
Locked