Internal Power

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
Locked
oneya
Posts: 857
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: Mornington Victoria Australia

Re: Internal Power

Post by oneya »

Hi Bob,
Leaving the esoteric ki/qi/prāṇā labels aside for the moment and thinking just in terms of inner energy. I think we need to understand that all inner energy is activated from the moment of our birth and common sense tells us it is actually a component In the western ‘civilisation’ breathing patterns also, even though little thought is given to it.

The cultural eastern and western difference is where: much like the muscular, intellectual and emotional systems, the breathing system of the homo-sapien can be nurtured, strengthened and cultivated as a preventative measure for Asian medicinal purposes but western culture looks more to curative practices.

I haven’t counted ‘em but apart from the martial artist and the like, the only occidentals with a breathing purpose that I know of is the Australian outback bushman who will usually inhale and drink beer through his teeth to stop the flies entering his mouth in the summer when the flies add a mystery flavour and protein to the BBQ.

There are other cultural differences though: In the western manner we tend to exhale loudly and many students ‘collapse’ the breath and lose control or only use a part of the lung capacity, whereas, It has been noted in an old meeting between Kuguri sensei and Jim Elkin sensei, two old Tomiki aikido adepts: that Japanese martial culture was greatly influenced in its development by its agrarian culture, perhaps even to its manner of breathing and language.

{Kuguri/Elkin} http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... 1nvOY&NR=1

As you would obviously know: the Nihongo speaker will usually exhale ‘inwardly’ as opposed to expelling the breath forcefully, or perhaps in what I would call centripetal (seeking the centre) before centrifugal spiralling effect of the energy: which reminds me of our Wado Pinan shodan movement 16 where uchi uke is centripetal as in gathering in to one’s centre whilst the following soto motion is deflecting from one’s centre, Nagashizuki can be like this too..

What this means (to me) is that the connected body starts with the breath at the moment of understanding the concepts of intent and willpower. Intent being inert until willpower gives it life. Breath is life so it is the life force in all aspects of one’s life including wado ryu.

Linking spiral breathing or eternity breathing - in a figure eight across the lungs - to this for practitioners who are still focused on doing things to an opponent, or the effect in terms of the opponent (instead of what is going on in his own body) is probably always going to be a lead balloon given the limitations of the internet and no physical contact with a student. Even with a dojo and the hands on students, he or she has to be at the stage of being switched on to this stuff to get any degree of understanding.

As I write this, I come face to face again with the enormity of Suzuki sensei’s problem of bringing this before the gaijin mind. Particularly the European ‘pragmatic’ legacy of the artisan with very few earlier ‘education’ systems that were not designed to link thought to the notion of obedience in the class hampered primary and secondary systems that reserved research and development for the tertiary students to battle with.

Suzuki’s brilliant answer to his limited language problem was to conjure his set of 8 ohyo Kumite where the principles of Newton’s 3 laws of motion were physically demonstrated, enlisted and physically reachable for the average guy if he was ready to see it. Check out his version of six direction in his ohyo #4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnNx6hDSmP8

or check out Fukazawa sensei translating it into technique here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnaKqT7y-I0

and here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJk_9YET ... F2AA5B251A

Let's not forget Shiomitsu sensei showng how to ‘change the maai’ to nullify by interrupting the spiral in the Hawaii seminar that Honolulu Desktop threw up on the forum before he left us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7_UlaneJD8

But the old meijin built a few more into his kata system also.

Perhaps most people still see ohyo kumite in term of linking fighting technique so maybe I can use Suzuki’s spirals example for the forum?

It works for us.

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Re: Internal Power

Post by Gusei21 »

Between work and answering private emails about internal power ( for some reason people hesitate asking questions on a public forum OR they don’t want to be seen chatting with me in public – probably the latter…lol) I wanted to highlight something that most of you should easily be able to wrap your head around even if this is a genuine internal power topic. You already do it if you are from a traditional Wado dojo. You probably even take it for granted. But what you probably don’t realize is the genius behind this model and how sophisticated this can become if you learn to condition your body in specific ways.

I am talking about the Wado nagashiuke whether it be on the inside or the outside. (Outside being how we use it in the first block of kihon kumite vs inside being how we use it in the first block of kihon kumite 8 and 9.)
What we have here is a type of block that is unique to Wado. It is a type of spiraling block. Why is this relevant to internal power? Simple. One of the characteristics of internal power is how we deal with incoming force. How we deal with attacks coming at us.

Usually in the internal power model the proponent has the ability to negate or prevent the force from affecting one’s center. Any force that can be allowed to access our center is a bad thing. We always want to affect the opponent’s center while we keep our center unaffected. Having an unaffected center means that your balance cannot be compromised and you are able to transmit force into your opponent without being impeded or hindered in anyway.

The power of a spiraling block is such that no force can enter your body in a way that can disrupt your center. If you do a standard block – soto uke, uchi uke – where the point of impact is about 90 degrees then at the moment of contact you have force coming back into you. In a typical encounter the winner is the one who releases greater force or has a better angle to overcome the greater force. Either way you have force coming back into you at the moment of impact.

Spiral. Imagine a beach ball spinning in the sand. This beach ball is somehow anchored to the sand so you can’t move it. It only spins. (Use your imagination…I can’t think of a better example off the cuff). If you try to hit the center of the spinning beach ball your fist will slide off towards the direction of the rotation. No matter how hard you try to hit the center your punch will manage to stay there for only a split second and then slide off. This is not a true spiral. Just rotation. Not as efficient as a spiral.
Now imagine a lever. The lever is hinged. It has two sides. This hinge has two sides that are actually made up of bars. Like arms. And instead of just opening and closing at the joint the bars can also rotate. (rotation).

And since this is also a hinge it can also open and close (revolution). So this thing is both capable of revolution and rotation – simultaneously. Not only that but since there are two bars connected by a hinge you can also rotate both bars in the same direction OR the opposite direction. (This has a profound affect in the ‘hands’ of an advanced martial artist).
Obviously this ‘thing’ is our arm. The hinge is our elbow. Forearm and upper arm connected by your elbow. You have revolution and rotation.
So now an attack comes. You must begin your ‘action’ before impact. Once the impact takes place it is too late to start your rotation/revolution. It must happen before. You have to be pre spiraling before impact. At the moment of impact two things happen simultaneously. The attack is automatically diverted in a tangent (orthogonally if you want to be precise) and the contact point will shift because of the revolution caused by the elbow. In other words the contact point on your arm never stays static. With just rotation it will still work. The attack gets diverted in a tangent because you cannot put much force into anything that has rotation. But combined with revolution makes it even more impossible to affect the blocker because the contact point slides both around and laterally on the arm. Net result – the blocker’s center is not affected. No force enters the blocker.

I know most of you take this for granted. But when seen from a greater martial context this is extremely profound. (translation: way cool!). This is a Wado thing inserted by Otsuka Sensei specifically because he understood the profound nature of the spiral.

Now go on youtube and watch him close the gap in kihon kumite or kumite gata. Watch him as he adjusts the maai. Ever noticed his arms wiggling? He has the wiggles. Hmmm. Guess what he is doing? He is spiraling – even before the attack begins.
Because we are spiraling with our arms there are limits to the rotation and revolution. Watch his wiggles. The spiral is making figure 8’s. You can only twist so far – then it has to twist back in the other direction – then it hits the end and then rotates back in the other direction. Figure 8’s.

For those who are further along in the internal path - (What do you suppose your legs are doing in the first half of Seishan? They are spiraling – in figure 8’s. Your arms are also spiraling in figure 8’s. Energy coming up one leg, crossing the body and issuing out the other arm while it goes down the other leg as the other arm gets pulled into hikite by the down energy of the connected body).

Now there is more to this than just the arms. His left arm is connected to his right leg, his right arm is connected to his left leg, he is fully connected – manifesting Heaven Earth Man. But to learn that stuff takes correct instruction and correct practice. Spiraling the arms is only a part of the overall equation in the context of the internal makeup of Wado but even so just knowing about this helps us better appreciate the genius and the uniqueness of Wado in the world of karate.
Bob Nash
Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Re: Internal Power

Post by Gusei21 »

Internal Delusion.

Dillman at his finest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n7tGnK0
Bob Nash
kyudo
Posts: 224
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:00 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Internal Power

Post by kyudo »

Gusei21 wrote:Internal Delusion.
Dillman at his finest.
The takeway: Before engaging in a fight, you should always first ask if the other guy believes in your power. Which is why I wind up running away so often. ;-)

Humor aside, I find the case of Dillman interesting because it shows how willing people are to believe in the most outrageous things. Especially in martial arts. It's easy to believe anything when you live in your own bubble. Not to compare anything we do with Dillman, but don't we live in our own Wado bubble too? I'm glad we have the concept of Ohyo kumite, where we can test if anything actually works. I hope that keeps us out of the shit heap.
Still, I'd guess that only few people have had the opportunity to feel the internal power that has been discussed in this thread. But that doesn't prevent anyone from believing. Or not....
I certainly don't mean to cast any doubt on the things discussed here, after all I have been 'fortunate' enough to be on the receiving end of some pretty amazing techniques. But on close scrutiny even Wado is a belief system for some part. Ignore that at your own peril.
Igor Asselbergs
http://kyudokan.nl/
Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Re: Internal Power

Post by Gusei21 »

Igor,

I didn't think you did Ohyo Kumite.
I don't. Never done it before.
People tell me it is useful thought.
We test ours by just beating on each other...
Bob Nash
oneya
Posts: 857
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: Mornington Victoria Australia

Re: Internal Power

Post by oneya »

Hi Igor,

Belief is not necessary for wado ryu to work, it is at once: pragmatic, demonstrable and provable. Wado ryu at its most basic is simple physics, study, practice and willpower. Belief whether underpinned by culture, fear, ignorance or ego will often be inimical to understanding.

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
oneya
Posts: 857
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: Mornington Victoria Australia

Re: Internal Power

Post by oneya »

Gusei21 wrote:Igor,

I didn't think you did Ohyo Kumite.
I don't. Never done it before.
People tell me it is useful thought.
We test ours by just beating on each other...
Ohyo kumite is just a teaching tool for the linguistically challenged Bob.

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
kyudo
Posts: 224
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:00 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Internal Power

Post by kyudo »

oneya wrote:Belief is not necessary for wado ryu to worka
You're right, it isn't.

Yet
• We believe Otsuka sensei was great martial artist. Even if hardly anyone had the chance to test that.
• We believe we will get better when practicing kihon diligently. But at the beginning, we only have sensei's word for it.
• We believe there's more beyond the horizon, such as internal power.
• We believe the sensei at the seminar will be able to deliver the goods. Even if he only shows it with his assistent.
• We believe the aikido guys are sissies and the kyokushin guys are a bunch of lumberjacks.
• We believe that what we train will work in the street. Though only few of us get to test it.
• We believe in maintaining aspects of Japanese culture in the West.
• Most of all, we believe Wado will make us better, whether physically, mentally or both.

Generalizing, offcourse. But for me it's hard to escape the perception that Wado is at least partly a belief system. I'm not saying that is negative in any way. Merely observing. After all, I'm a proud member of the congregation...

Reg, we all have our own set of opinions and convictions. And sometimes, unwittingly, we bend reality a little to fit our opinion. We want to believe what we believe. Are you telling me you're immune to that?
Igor Asselbergs
http://kyudokan.nl/
wadoka
Site Admin
Posts: 696
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:38 am
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset, UK.
Contact:

Re: Internal Power

Post by wadoka »

Hopefully in the dojo and courses part of the belief becomes knowledge in the sense that you will see people who have done more time and improved.
kyudo
Posts: 224
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:00 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Internal Power

Post by kyudo »

wadoka wrote:Hopefully in the dojo and courses part of the belief becomes knowledge
Indeed.
I strongly believe that (and experienced it!), else I'd never bother to put in all the hours...
Igor Asselbergs
http://kyudokan.nl/
Locked