Internal Power

[Gusei21]

How to solve it? In your case, simple.

This is not about me. When I bring myself up as an example, it is only because I can talk about myself and my situation with some authority. But I'm not that unique.

I think you are over complicating the issue.

Why? By now I'd say the issue boils down to a simple question, which I will repeat:
How does acquiring a skill depend on revelation?
I'd say that the revelation part messes up a lot of good things because it allows a lot of room for crap.

Igor,

I apologize for being dense.
Can you ask your question again?
I don't understand what you mean by
'How does acquiring a skill depend on revelation?'
I don't understand the question.

As for the first part, we can't save the world.
You are unique in my experience. I have never seen such discombobulated Wado until I came to Holland that first day when I met Muramatsu's black belts. Everyone was really nice. But I had never experienced such technical disarray.
It was technically the worst group of people trying to do Wado I had ever met up until that point in my life.
He did not teach any of you Wado or karate as I know it.
I know you can't relate to it because you are in it. I just felt bad for everyone because they were defrauded.
It's like being in a cult I think. It is hard to assess the situation when everything around you is on the same level.
No one in that room who were certified JKF Wadokai blackbelts could have passed a 7th kyu test in my dojo.
You've come a long way from that day and for that I commend you.

[kyudo]

Can you ask your question again?
I don't understand what you mean by
'How does acquiring a skill depend on revelation?'
I don't understand the question.

Tim remarked: Certain types of knowledge work best on revelation and have to be unfolded in sequence.
I broke that down in two statements:
Certain types of knowledge work best on revelation.
Certain types of knowledge have to be unfolded in sequence.
I disagree with the former and agree with the latter. I don't know which type of knowledge would work best on revelation, except for storytelling. And why would the transmission of Wado have to depend on revelation (and secrecy, which is the other side of the same coin...).

[Gusei21]

Igor,

I still don't get the revelation point. Perhaps Tim can help here.
But I think there is another issue at stake.
I think you are trying to solve a physical problem with intellect.
What I mean is...and back to the surfing analogy.
It is all feel.
A friend of mine just said it very clearly to me and I quote
'He is doing it the wrong way. He needs to find the feeling inside his body, instead of trying to figure it out in his mind.
You can not figure it out in your head. It needs to be done with the body. And if you get good teaching, you will get a few "Ohhhhh...!!.
I am all about the feeling...if I cannot feel it then I cannot do it..'

Based on what I know of you and how you are I think this is your solution.
You got to feel it. You need to feel when you are out of balance.
You need to feel your body connecting and unconnecting.
You have to be able to feel where your center is as you move so that the bits can do its thing.
I don't think you can think your way out of this hole.
It's a groove thing.....a body thing...

Can you dance?

Guess what we do in the beginning of every class run by Takagi Sensei?
We skip up and down the floor..forwards and backwards. Skip. Like little children.

[oneya]

Igor wrote"Yes, education is sequential. But it does not necessarily depend on revelation.

I think we can cite aspect of wado like kihon kumite = ohyo kumite = tanto dori and Idori etc, as almost being almost exclusively inculcated via practice and revelation. Wado kata is revealed via analysis and the test beds of ohyo kumite. The whole structure of wado ryu is based on the dynamic principles of movement and motion revealed, examined and pragmatically tested via the corporeal senses. It is one of many such budo systems which is pragmatically tested through history and totally dependent on its self revealing dynamic. If there is no 'revelation' then you are doing it wrong.

oneya wrote: - kihon is part of the deal whereas I don't remember manifesting 'internal power' ever being touted as a feature of wado ryu.

Igor replied: But I have never seen a 'Get Your Kihon Here!' sign either. McDojo or not...

Tsk Tsk Igor - itemised and summarised you will find Kihon waza is on page one of every dojo curriculum no matter the allegiance.

Igor, we have something like 18000 words to date on this thread and all saying roughly the same thing but you're still wriggling, now why is that..? If we look at the icons of wado ryu they all have the same thing in common which is well oiled and well structured kihon waza, it is manifestly obvious that kihon waza is the way forward so what is the problem with enjoying its unique practices?.

oneya

[kyudo]

It is all feel.

Yes, I totally get that feeling and intuition are very important in the process. But feeling and intuition can also lead you astray if there is no guiding line.

I don't see how keeping information secret untill it can be revealed helps one bit. On the other hand, making the journey clearer from the start might make for a more fulfilling journey and provides more incentive to cover the distance.

My kids learn step by step at school. However, it is made pretty clear to them where their efforts might lead (learning a new language, for instance) and which obstacles await them (grammer, vocabulary). If they want, they can go to a library where the best literature in that particular language is readily available. Everything is made clear from the start, it is not getting revealed along the way.

The whole structure of wado ryu is based on the dynamic principles of movement and motion revealed, examined and pragmatically tested via the corporeal senses. It is one of many such budo systems which is pragmatically tested through history and totally dependent on its self revealing dynamic. If there is no 'revelation' then you are doing it wrong.

I'm not contesting that Wado has a self revealing dynamic. I guess that goes for most walks of life, including learning a language. I'm saying that:
1. The fact that Wado as a budo system has been pragmatically tested through time doesn't necessarily mean that it's up to the present time.
2. As my own sensei has shown, revelations (valuable or not) do not necessarily consititute Wado.

[oneya]

1. The fact that Wado as a budo system has been pragmatically tested through time doesn't necessarily mean that it's up to the present time.

I am not sure if being 'up to the present time' has any relevance or meaning in relation to a Japanese martial art. What are you saying..

2. As my own sensei has shown, revelations (valuable or not) do not necessarily consititute Wado.

This is even more cryptic Igor I have no idea what you are saying here...must be bedtime..

oneya

[Tim49]

Spoonfeeding is the worst way of addressing knowledge. Revelation through hard work is knowledge gained in the most valuable, profound and lasting way.

I think the sticky part of what you say is when you use the word ‘skills’. I never look at the Wado picture and think ‘skills’. For me the whole Wado package has skills but that is certainly not all there is to it.

My use of the word ‘Revelation’ connects more to this definition; “The act of revealing or disclosing” rather than any dramatic damascene or Eureka moment. But I use that in an unfolding systematic way, nothing secret and certainly not mystical.

My take on it is simple; A leads to B then to C and so on.. Try to jump from C to R and R just becomes an abstract with only limited use.

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK

[Gusei21]

Igor,

I know you work in high tech. You are all about innovation.
In the context of martial arts you seem to be in pursuit of a better teaching model for Wado.
That much I can see.
As much as I have tried I do not believe my message has gotten across to you.
So I will pull a Roberto Duran and say 'No Mas'. Nov 25th 1980. Against Sugar Ray Leonard.
You can look it up.
I can't think of any other approach. We don't seem to have a common frame of reference.

[kyudo]

So I will pull a Roberto Duran and say 'No Mas'.

Is this where I get to 'spring up like a squirrel on the top rope of neutral corner? ;-
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/sp ... 11.25.html

But enough is enough. I've asked quite a few questions and I surely don't have all the answers either.

I have to say though, that is does worry me a bit to hear the argument 'Quit thinking. Quit evaluating. Just shut up and do what I say' in a discussion that is strictly speaking about methods of education. I don't think we should confuse methods of training in the dojo with an online discussion.
Yes, I'm into innovation. But certainly not at all cost. I do see the value of history and lineage and the contributions of all the generations that came before.
However, we shouldn't forget that Wado doesn't date back all that long. It is a modern art built on koryu roots, drawing heavily on methods of sports. It got spread way beyond its historical location, among way more people than suhari was ever designed for.
Can we really affort not to test and question this relatively new system now and again?

But fair enough. I had my say. I'll shut up for a while now.

[Gusei21]

However, we shouldn't forget that Wado doesn't date back all that long. It is a modern art built on koryu roots, drawing heavily on methods of sports. It got spread way beyond its historical location, among way more people than suhari was ever designed for.
Can we really affort not to test and question this relatively new system now and again?

But fair enough. I had my say. I'll shut up for a while now.

Oh...I threw in the towel too soon I see.
Now I think I finally understand what you are trying to say.
You want to create a new teaching methodology for the European mind.
You feel that shuhari doesn't work in Europe.
You want to revise our current system.
You are not concerned about junzuki or maegeri or any of the kihon per say.
You are more interested in how to teach it. whatever IT might be.

I can't help you there. I just try to teach the way my teacher teaches with minor modifications of my own based upon my scuba diving instruction knowledge and my basketball coaching experiences. As for shuhari, like I always said I am forever stuck in the shu and once in a while I might venture out to the ha but don't really stay there that long. I never plan nor have the desire for RI. At least not intentionally.
Good luck with your venture.
How do you plan to measure success?
Control group? Will you compare how fast your students acquired a proper junzuki vs a typical Japanese student?
How would you truly measure if your new methodology is superior?
So this is no longer an issue of crappy technique. It's superior teaching methodology.
Ok...
But this new and improved teaching methodology will surely address crappy technique right? Hopefully?
Otherwise this whole endeavour will be pointless I think.