Internal Power

[Tim49]

Interesting post.

I realise I am going out on a limb here as I do not know the individuals concerned but with regard to knowledge being passed from Japanese Sensei to the wider world. I think that the knowledge passed direct from the late master Ohtsuka was not consistent; in that each of them had varying levels of learning from the great man. Some of it was picked up piecemeal and on the hoof. Some of them picked up valuable pieces and figured the other stuff out for themselves, with oddities and idiosyncrasies slotted in to boot (e.g. of the Yanagawa model).

Universities may have had visits from master Ohtsuka, but (as has been said) their interests were in fighting in the inter university tournaments, so how much he was able to get across is questionable, maybe his audience was not ready for his message?

The wider dissemination of Wado across the world was a patchwork project which was always going to be beset by problems, particularly when it comes head to head with the western analytical models and the western insistence that all knowledge should be an open book. Those early instances where East met West gave us in part a ‘karate’ model that was palatable to western tastes. I really do wonder if Wado as practiced and taught by Master Ohtsuka in its purist form would ever have been palatable to westerners. I somehow doubt it.

Is the present ubiquitous system a broken system, a system no longer fit for purpose? I think for some people it fulfils their personal needs; it’s enough. But other people want to go further, well good luck to them in that, as Bob has said, that particular aspiration is for unique people who have unique talent, find themselves in unique positions and have access to equally unique individuals (teachers).

When I was a callow youth I found myself working shoulder to shoulder with an old chap shovelling s**t. For him this was his job, for me it was to temporarily put some money in my pocket. He used to mutter on about how if he were my age and knew what he knows now,, blah, blah. After a while I got tired of his talk and stopped and said to him, “okay, just what is it you know that I don’t know that is so valuable” and so he told me…. It was hugely disappointing, he went on about working hard at school, knuckling down, having the confidence to do things, all the boring answers; but now, with the benefit of a good many years I realise he was absolutely on the money!

So, at risk of sounding like the old man, in my humble opinion, I offer one word, the same word that has been mentioned by Bob and Reg many times ……. Kihon.

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK

[JuhaR]

So, wado is quite simple, then. All one has to do is to:

1. Find a good instructor
2. Train correctly

A tad frustrating… How do one find a good instructor? Senseis don’t come with a tattoo stating: “ JKF Wadokai approved Master” (or do they? Maybe it's hidden under the gi...)

On a more serious note, what should one really do? Participate in various seminars, and try to compare the established masters with one’s own instructor? And then what? Say to your instructor that: “Thanks for everything, but you suck, I'll find someone who really knows wado!”??

Is it possible to “train correctly” without someone qualified to point the way? I understand that the actual training is something everyone has to do themselves, but quantity does not compensate for bad quality.

Like discussed earlier, a McDojo-system where all instructors would be truly certified might not be such a bad idea. Krav Maga has is, I think Shorinji Kempo has it etc.

I believe the are a lot of people with a lot of potential, and if someone would show them the "correct" way, they would do great.

[kyudo]

So, at risk of sounding like the old man, in my humble opinion, I offer one word, the same word that has been mentioned by Bob and Reg many times ……. Kihon.

I fully agree with that.
But the question remains which is the right kihon? And a next question would be: how to practice it in the most efficient and fulfilling way. I can assure you that finding out that you're practicing the 'wrong' kihon after 20 years or so is not exactly fulfilling. Moreover, I know that there are many people in that position that will never find out. And if they do, they rather ignore it and continue in their own merry ways. As you already pointed out: it's pretty difficult to find a decent s**t shoveler.

The wider dissemination of Wado across the world was a patchwork project which was always going to be beset by problems, particularly when it comes head to head with the western analytical models and the western insistence that all knowledge should be an open book.

If you ask me, the western analytical model sure has its limitations and there's a lot to be learned from the east. On the other hand, the 'open book' model may work better than knowledge shrouded in secrecy as is often the case in the model of suhari.
The current model is largely taken out of a culture which is not our own, out of times that are long gone by, for small groups where we now have millions. So why insisting on sticking with the old?

I'm not sure what will work. But I do know that secrecy does not work. For me at least...

[Tim49]

Yes but, as my story illustrates the truth (as I see it) is quite plain. Because it doesn’t have mumbo jumbo or is dressed in pseudo-mystical clothes people just won’t accept it. The answers are simple but unpalatable and this makes them hard to do.

I’m keeping all this ‘internal’ malarkey at arms length, seen too much silliness and showmanship to give it any credence, so I’ll keep clear of that one.

But how to solve the problem of right kihon…
Phew that’s a tough one. The biggest issue is pretty much as Bob says; the emptying of the cup. Too many bad habits overlaid with further bad habits create a hell of an obstacle. Wouldn’t it be interesting if the western logical approach could be turned in on itself? For example if someone tells you that your kihon is rigid, wooden and artificial and that Ohtsuka Sensei said do not use unnecessary strength/tension, just throw out the tension, loosen everything down to its least tense fluid application, closely examine the structure/timing of what you do with a full understanding of what the bigger objective is (don’t get sucked in by power/strength etc.) maybe, just maybe you might have half a chance of some kind of breakthrough.

The ‘open book’ model does work very well on one level. Certain types of knowledge work best on revelation and have to be unfolded in sequence.

I don’t know if you have ever seen any of those ‘For Dummies’ book series? A system like Wado cannot be treated like a ‘For Dummies’ book, where you could just skip the boring bits and go straight to the meaty stuff, the meaty stuff becomes meaningless or ridiculously simple or just academic, some look like mildly interesting museum pieces (Tanto Dori etc, etc.) and are pretty much meaningless without the correct foundation. This just leaves us with frustration and confusion.

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK

[kyudo]

Certain types of knowledge work best on revelation and have to be unfolded in sequence.

Which types of knowledge and why?
All I can think of are stories. Stories need to be revealed and unfolded in sequence, else they won't work. A skill should also be acquired in sequence. But how does a skill depend on revelation?

[Gusei21]

Igor,

I think you are over complicating the issue.

It is simple.
1) Find a good instructor.
You failed on the first account. I don't care what his credentials were. He taught you crap.
I did not say he was crap. I said he taught you crap. Why he taught you crap I have no idea.
But this goes back to our conversation we had when we started Wadoworld and you wanted to post his kihon kumite stuff.
What did I say back then? That this was crap. That we should not put that on the website because it was pure crap.
How many years ago was that when I said that? But I was outvoted...

I think it is only human to believe that our instructor is good. We want to believe.

How to solve it? In your case, simple. Just do what I tell you to do.
Just shut up and train. Quit thinking. Quit evaluating. Just shut up and do what I say.
Don't question it. I know what I am doing.
Of course the problem with that statement is that I am sure your instructor said the exact same thing right?
So.......what to do.....
I know I am right. He knew he was right. But he was wrong!
I don't know. How do you know who to trust?
His credentials on paper sound impressive. I know a lot more people with more impressive credentials.
Some even have 8th dans from the JKF Wadokai...and as far as I am concerned they are crap.

So what to do?

I have no answer except to tell you to just shut up and train the way I tell you. Or Tim or Reg or Gordon.
And we all belong to different Wado groups but that does not matter...our kihon is the same.
Now how can that be? Oh...I know...we all had good instructors!

[oneya]

Igor wrote:
If you ask me, the western analytical model sure has its limitations and there's a lot to be learned from the east. On the other hand, the 'open book' model may work better than knowledge shrouded in secrecy as is often the case in the model of suhari.
The current model is largely taken out of a culture which is not our own, out of times that are long gone by, for small groups where we now have millions. So why insisting on sticking with the old?

Igor, it is not that the Shu Ha Ri model is shrouded in secrecy but more the student that is laden with ignorance being the case in the transmission of a Japanese art form. In our western world we use the very same model in our primary, secondary and tertiary systems of education where the child advances through each stage as he or she becomes of an age to comprehend and participate in the benefits of increments and levels. Suhari then is a universal model of transmission with a process that is incremental in its delivery as the student grows. We even have crappy teachers and difficult students too, in the first instance this is often because of the meagre degree of sapience in the human condition and in the second place it is because of the even more meagre degree of sapience in the human condition. Changing the system will not solve the problems of either one - which is why we have kihon. Yes, I know but kihon is part of the deal whereas I don't remember manifesting 'internal power' ever being touted as a feature of wado ryu.

oneya

[Gusei21]

Is it possible to “train correctly” without someone qualified to point the way?.

No. Not in my experience and opinion.
The question you have to ask yourself is this.
How badly do you want to train correctly?
I just spent a week in Japan with a Finn.
When he first arrived his kihon kumite was a mess....
By the time he left it got a bit better...
Still needs a lot of work but better.... :)

[kyudo]

How to solve it? In your case, simple.

This is not about me. When I bring myself up as an example, it is only because I can talk about myself and my situation with some authority. But I'm not that unique.

I think you are over complicating the issue.

Why? By now I'd say the issue boils down to a simple question, which I will repeat:
How does acquiring a skill depend on revelation?
I'd say that the revelation part messes up a lot of good things because it allows a lot of room for crap.

[kyudo]

...it is not that the Shu Ha Ri model is shrouded in secrecy but more the student that is laden with ignorance being the case in the transmission of a Japanese art form. In our western world we use the very same model in our primary, secondary and tertiary systems of education where the child advances through each stage as he or she becomes of an age to comprehend and participate in the benefits of increments and levels.

Yes, education is sequential. But it does not necessarily depend on revelation.

kihon is part of the deal whereas I don't remember manifesting 'internal power' ever being touted as a feature of wado ryu.

But I have never seen a 'Get Your Kihon Here!' sign either. McDojo or not...
Buying into wado is a bit like buying a car. For most part it's about coolness, ego and performance. Most people don't buy a car because it happens to have a double overhead camshaft. Still, the double overhead camshaft may be the part that makes the car accelerate faster. And that's what you become interested in when you start examining the car in earnest.
Internal power is a feature of the engine of Wado. It may be under the hood, but it's still relevant. Even though not every engine will have a double overhead camshaft...