Emergence of Wado tachi dori, tanto dori & idori from SYR

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
Gusei21
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Re: Emergence of Wado tachi dori, tanto dori & idori from SY

Post by Gusei21 »

oneya wrote:Hi Tobin,


In looking at your TYSR list of principle I find myself nodding as I note that zenshin and ten chi jin get their head up in SNY wado and – if I have the kanji right - I think we may understand ju no musubi and go no musubi under other names but would need to share a dojo with you to confirm this. On the other hand I am not familiar with the anteho/fuanteho labels so you could well be right in saying SYR Principles: “ are not comprehensively employed in the Wado idori/tantodori” and so the mystery remains.

whether it was seen as just too difficult for the gaijin to comprehend, perhaps even unnecessary in the light of Shiai success in the western world as being a major plank in Ohtsuka meijin’s philosophy of peace.
Regards
oneya

Hi Reg,

Definitely have nothing to do with gaijin. The gaijin got much more of it thanks to Suzuki Sensei. If anything the Japanese in Japan are jealous of the gaijin since they seem to be more familiar with the stuff. The Japanese in Japan were mostly only exposed to it by watching Otsuka Sensei in his demonstrations. So at best they could just ape his movements which as you know is never enough to get the goods. So at the end of the day the gaijin got more of the tanto/idori pie for whatever that is worth. And my opinion as previously stated is that for me it is a grand waste of time if you don't know how to do it correctly.

As for ante and fuante ho - I am sure Sensei Threadgill can expound on this but ante just means 'in balance' and fuante means 'off balance'. Ho is method or direction.
So at a beginner comprehension level anteho funateho can be translated as strong line/weak line. You unbalance people down their weak line. You throw them down their weak line. You apply kuzushi down their weak line. You avoid their strong line unless you want to hit them then hitting them in their strong line hurts them more right? Again, a green belt jujitsu explanation. I am sure there is more to it than that.
Bob Nash
Gary
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Re: Emergence of Wado tachi dori, tanto dori & idori from SY

Post by Gary »

Gusei21 wrote: As for ante and fuante ho - I am sure Sensei Threadgill can expound on this but ante just means 'in balance' and fuante means 'off balance'. Ho is method or direction.
So at a beginner comprehension level anteho funateho can be translated as strong line/weak line. You unbalance people down their weak line. You throw them down their weak line. You apply kuzushi down their weak line. You avoid their strong line unless you want to hit them then hitting them in their strong line hurts them more right? Again, a green belt jujitsu explanation. I am sure there is more to it than that.
Different traditions / Ryu-ha had their own names and ways to approach and train this kind of stuff it would seem.

At our Sosuishi-ryu dojo, we practice an exercise that is part of the Kempo set called “Yukiai Tani Watari” – which, if I remember correctly translates as “to bridge the valley” (I should pay more attention as I am not sure that is 100% correct).

Anyway, point is – it is a paired exercise where you learn to unbalance an opponent using very subtle hip movement and leverage rather than muscular strength. It’s all to do with the tipping / crossing points and “feeling” - odd one that as I can’t really explain it without using that word!

It was one of the first things I learnt, (I still suck at it) and we practice it every time – because it embeds the method into you – which you then take on to the various techniques within the system.

Without practicing these sorts of exercises you can’t really get the most out of kata/waza/techniques found within the koryu.

Or at least this is what I have observed / experienced.
Gary Needham
Walton Wado Karate Club

清漣館双水執流英国稽古会
http://seirenkanuk.wordpress.com/
oneya
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Re: Emergence of Wado tachi dori, tanto dori & idori from SY

Post by oneya »

Gusei21 wrote: As for ante and fuante ho - I am sure Sensei Threadgill can expound on this but ante just means 'in balance' and fuante means 'off balance'. Ho is method or direction.
So at a beginner comprehension level anteho funateho can be translated as strong line/weak line. You unbalance people down their weak line. You throw them down their weak line. You apply kuzushi down their weak line. You avoid their strong line unless you want to hit them then hitting them in their strong line hurts them more right? Again, a green belt jujitsu explanation. I am sure there is more to it than that.
Ah thank you for that Bob, in that case we certainly teach what I used to call 'getting your sea legs' or maintaining one's equilibrium and Suzuki sensei would call 'baransu'. I don't know that we teach it to a koryu depth but, as you would well know with your passion for sailboarding, a man can't spend a decade seafaring without understanding Gimbals as hei jo shin and employing balance in his work.

oneya.
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
TSYR
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Re: Emergence of Wado tachi dori, tanto dori & idori from SY

Post by TSYR »

oneya wrote:
Gusei21 wrote: As for ante and fuante ho - I am sure Sensei Threadgill can expound on this but ante just means 'in balance' and fuante means 'off balance'. Ho is method or direction.
So at a beginner comprehension level anteho funateho can be translated as strong line/weak line. You unbalance people down their weak line. You throw them down their weak line. You apply kuzushi down their weak line. You avoid their strong line unless you want to hit them then hitting them in their strong line hurts them more right? Again, a green belt jujitsu explanation. I am sure there is more to it than that.
Ah thank you for that Bob, in that case we certainly teach what I used to call 'getting your sea legs' or maintaining one's equilibrium and Suzuki sensei would call 'baransu'. I don't know that we teach it to a koryu depth but, as you would well know with your passion for sailboarding, a man can't spend a decade seafaring without understanding Gimbals as hei jo shin and employing balance in his work.

oneya.
Hi Reg,

I'll try to clarify what I'm talking about and seeing. And please, to the other readers...I'm not dissing Wado ryu. I'm comparing apples and oranges. The idori existing in Wado ryu have a different mission than the idori in SYR. I completely accept that we are doing the same kata to achieve a different result.

Anteho/Fuanteho at a basic level is as Bob described it. At a higher level it becomes very sophisticated, employing internal body dynamics and structure to develop connection to the ground in a way that to the average observer looks impossible. I believe you have a copy of my Nairiki DVD. In the kunren section you can see me demonstrating the application of this principle. I'm controlling a powerful force directly attacking the weak line of my stance (fuanteho) and directing it down through my base so my structure is not disrupted. Now, take that into our idori kata. Foot placement is extremely important for shite. Even the slightest misplacement by shite, and I'm talking a 1/2 inch, can alter the options shite has in the kata against a powerful and aggressive uchite. I have not seen one Wado practitioner demonstrating awareness of this principle and how it is applied. This demonstrates that at sometime this principle was either set aside, forgotten or purposely eliminated. There could be many reasons for this and since I'm not Ohtsuka or one of his early students, I can only speculate as to why......As can everyone else.

The differences between the Wado and SYR idori and tantodori are significant, and the absence of these advanced principles, not the outward form, are the keys to identifying and understanding these differences. Whether a guy like Suzuki knew or did not know these principles is irrelevant when you consider that he could still knock someones head to the moon. Right?

As they say down in Texas "Those cousins, they be different." :)
Tobin E Threadgill
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai
http://www.shinyokai.com
oneya
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Re: Emergence of Wado tachi dori, tanto dori & idori from SY

Post by oneya »

Hi Tobin,

Sometimes them cousins can be a bit obtuse too I reckon so thanks for your patience.

As far as nairiki no gyo is concerned you would be absolutely correct. I suspect especially when we consider that wado ryu naihanchi no kata, which, despite having roughly the same meaning, is never opened at the ura page. Without seeing the kunren of nairiki no gyo there is no reason to question the way that the nine Okinawan kata are studied but now that you have raised the point (which I felt I could not from my meagre knowledge of nairiki no gyo) I would tend to consider the possibility that he (the old gentleman) having opted for the Okinawan model, now saw the connection from naihanchi to seishan as being more salient.

This leads me to ponder why Ohtsuka meijin was trav’lin’ in this direction. I mean, with Wado kata being all about entrenching the way of wado movement, especially in its more obvious SYR close quarter kata legacy beyond the Okinawan influence, it would surely have benefited from its Nairiki no gyo inclusion. There is the matter of the Okinawan influence bringing its own needs and adjustments In terms of foot placement etc, producing different outcomes too so the old gentleman may have looked at this as being of either/or consideration in terms of the future for Wado Ryu. Again there is the possibility that it was considered a ‘bridge too far’ in the early stages and put on a back burner for later or It shapes up too as a ‘jewel in the crown’ that he may have considered kakushi and thought it best kept that way in the light of koryu’s uncertain future.?

I personally have no answers and very few regrets concerning wado ryu and although I have, like Robbie Smith, practiced and viewed elements like this from the Chinese perspective for a couple of years I’d have to put nairiki no gyo, as a staple, at the top of that list of few regrets.

regards

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
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