Emergence of Wado tachi dori, tanto dori & idori from SYR

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
Gusei21
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Emergence of Wado tachi dori, tanto dori & idori from SYR

Post by Gusei21 »

Arturo,

I agree with you. To teach this stuff and making people think it actually works is ridiculous.
Perhaps that is why the Wadokai in their wisdom has let it go? I do not know.
Maybe they think you can get the same timing exercise in kumite?
My speculation. I have no evidence to back this up.
But if the top people are true budoka with half a brain then they would know this.
I have never seen Takagi Sensei ever do sword defense. Never seen Arakawa Sensei do one either.
Now I am curious. I will ask him and see what he says... :)

I do not fault Suzuki Sensei for doing it. I just assumed he had to compete in a tight market against the likes of Enoeda and others so you gotta do what you gotta do to increase potential membership.
I mean, just look at his idori demos. He sends people flying thru the air. You would never do that in real idori. The last thing you want to do is to lose contact with your 'prey'.
You want him right next to you so you can crush him into the ground then slit his throat or whatever your preferred means of dispatching your opponent. There are no public videos of Otsuka Sensei doing idori but from what I have seen of Wadoryu Renmei no one goes sailing thru the air either.

There is a difference between showmanship and real bugei. But authentic bugei many times is like watching grass grow. Showmanship is much more interesting to the average fan. I always fall asleep watching the so called authentic demos unless the person is truly special. I don't think there is anything wrong with showmanship if it gets people in the door. And showmanship is a skill.
And then there are cheap martial art tricks which is an different animal all together. I did a seminar this past weekend and spent about 15 minutes teaching cheap martial art tricks.
We had fun with it. It is a great way to entertain kids and increase your popularity at bars.
Bob Nash
AG1
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Post by AG1 »

Gusei21 wrote:I do not fault Suzuki Sensei for doing it. I just assumed he had to compete in a tight market against the likes of Enoeda and others so you gotta do what you gotta do to increase potential membership. I mean, just look at his idori demos. He sends people flying thru the air. You would never do that in real idori. The last thing you want to do is to lose contact with your 'prey'.You want him right next to you so you can crush him into the ground then slit his throat or whatever your preferred means of dispatching your opponent. There are no public videos of Otsuka Sensei doing idori but from what I have seen of Wadoryu Renmei no one goes sailing thru the air either.
Bob, for the record I never saw Suzuki Sensei doing a tachi dori demo and I am pretty sure he never did one; but tachi dori is part of the WIKF curriculum (4th Dan and above) as he learned it from Ohtsuka and thought it an important tool for transmitting Wado principles.

Agree re idori principles. What he may have or not done in demos is irrelevant. His "real" idori and the way we learned it from him can be seen here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReDapo636-c


Yours in Wado.
Arturo Girona
Wado Kokusai KarateDo Renmei
Gary
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Post by Gary »

AG1 wrote: Agree re idori principles. What he may have or not done in demos is irrelevant. His "real" idori and the way we learned it from him can be seen here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReDapo636-c

Yours in Wado.
Hmmm Idori...

More Koryu stuff I'm afraid, but having been on the receiving end of some of these (again thanks to Mr Delaney!!! not! :) ) I can tell you - the devil really is in the detail (and they hurt like billyo!!).

Bob's point about controlling the enemy is spot on:

You'll probably recognise a few of these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHAdcFpH7Bo

I do appreciate the difference between exercises that teach principles and stratagems etc. and those that are more combatively applicable, but I also think that authenticity is the key, when it comes to getting the most out of these types of exercises.

Gary
Gary Needham
Walton Wado Karate Club

清漣館双水執流英国稽古会
http://seirenkanuk.wordpress.com/
AG1
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Post by AG1 »

Not certain what you are referring to, Gary, but since your comments followed my posting of Suzuki Sensei's Idori I can only infer you are talking about this idori video. Authenticity is obviously in the eye of the beholder and in your case your vision seems to be very narrow. Unless you have ever trained under Suzuki Sensei or been on the "receiving end" of his idori or any other techniques, you are certainly in no position to opine or critique the "authenticity" of his technique.
Best,
Arturo Girona
Wado Kokusai KarateDo Renmei
Gary
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Post by Gary »

AG1 wrote:Unless you have ever trained under Suzuki Sensei or been on the "receiving end" of his idori or any other techniques, you are certainly in no position to opine or critique the "authenticity" of his technique.
I did not intend to offend however; whilst I am in no position to critique Mr Suzuki's Idori (as I have never trained with him), I have trained in a system (for a few years now) that has this kind of stuff as its meat and two veg!

I am no expert (I'm crap tbh) - but my teacher is one of the best (outside of Japan) - and I see very few similarities between the stuff he teaches us and what was on that vid - style / ryuha aside.

Sure, the shape is there - but that's about it.

Sorry
Gary Needham
Walton Wado Karate Club

清漣館双水執流英国稽古会
http://seirenkanuk.wordpress.com/
Gusei21
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Post by Gusei21 »

Arturo,

Go study real idori - Toby Threadgill is easily accessible. It is not an issue of being smashed into the mat with strength.
You don't have a frame of reference to even discuss this. Of course Suzuki Sensei could smash people. He was very strong and very well trained.
But that is not the idori that Otsuka Sensei did. It can't be if he was any good at Shindo Yoshin Ryu.
Let's keep it real here.

Just my opinion but when Suzuki Sensei got stuck he reverted to muscle. You can see it in the video if you know how to see.
Real jujitsu does not work that way.
The idori of Wadoryu is not karate. It is jujitsu.

I am adding this as an after thought.
This discussion is pointless.
Arturo says Suzuki Sensei had it.
I said he had something but not that.
Then I tell him to go check out Toby Threadgill - or in Gary's case he says go check out Steven Delaney - both authentic koryu guys well versed in idori and other stuff.
There is nothing I can say that can convince anyone. I am only preaching to the choir.
How you see something is a result of your life experience. Gary and I got lucky. So now we see things a bit differently from Arturo.
But there is no way I can convince anyone that they are wrong even if I put up youtube videos because the average person can't see the stuff we see.
The only way to see it is to train in it.
So....this discussion is pointless. All I can say is 'trust me'. And those that respect my opinion will. The others will think I am full of crap.
So pointless.
Bob Nash
AG1
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Post by AG1 »

Gary wrote:But that is not the idori that Otsuka Sensei did. It can't be if he was any good at Shindo Yoshin Ryu
Sorry Bob, but what is your frame of reference to make such an statement? How long did you train under Ohtsuka? Cause Suzuki Sensei was his senior student and trained many, many years under him. So I take his work over yours, no offense.

Frankly I find it absurd to even have to have this discussion about Suzuki Sensei's techniques with people who knew of him but obviously very little about him and yet somehow feel qualified enough to judge him. In this forum, there may only be a couple of people (notably, Reg Kear who knew him long before I did) who know enough about him, his background and deeds to opine knowledgeably.
All the best,
Arturo Girona
Wado Kokusai KarateDo Renmei
oneya
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Post by oneya »

Authenticity.! I assume we are still talking wado ryu here.?

In which case we should be understanding that Tanto dori, Idori, and Tachi Dori are all omote kata in much the same way that Wado Pinan kata is to instil wado movement into one’s body so that practitioners can act and react according to the principles of wado ryu.

So – apples with apples - any authenticity in wado Tanto of Tachi dori can only be judged from the wado ryu point of view. It is not a Wikileaks revelation to know that omote kata is not supposed to work in a combat situation which is why Kata contest at tournaments are foolish. In the same way it is just as foolish to talk of sword defence in real terms in Wado tachi dori.

The major difference between Kihon gumite and Tanto dori is maai in the same way that the difference between Tanto dori and Tachi dori is also maai, The business of getting in close (irimi) is one thing but getting out again (taijo) – perhaps relatively easy in kihon kumite and with practice a little more difficult in tanto dori but without tachi dori’s lesson of the requisite maai for the extra 21 inches of blade or getting one’s self bifurcated is quite another.

If I remember rightly, wado ryu was deemed to be a ‘new’ Japanese art and had many differences to the old killing and maiming practices of yore.

Oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
Gusei21
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Post by Gusei21 »

This is pointless like I said.
Arturo, if your point is that Suzuki Sensei is doing idori like it is meant to be then you are highly mistaken.
If your point is that he is doing Wado idori - whatever that means then fine.
Like I said, there is no public video of Otsuka Sensei doing idori but I am sure he knew how to do it the 'authentic' koryu SYR way.
We will never know how he taught it or if he ever taught it.
What Suzuki Sensei is doing is not high level jujitsu by any stretch of the imagination. But what he does is effective against the opponent because he knows how to make it work in his own non jujitsu way. And he can do severe bodily harm to the opponent which at the end of the day is all that matters no?
No one is arguing that he is not good. He is excellent at what he does.
Anyone with half a brain can see this if they understand martial arts.
And I am certain I am on the same page as Reg. So?
I thought we had agreed that tachi tori and tanto was to teach principles?
Then Arturo implies that Suzuki Sensei could put a severe hurting on the opponent.
Yeah...so? That does not make it authentic idori. That just means he is a one tough karateka with superior skills.
Bob Nash
TSYR
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Post by TSYR »

Hello,

A question to ponder. If Ohtsuka taught idori why would he discard the SYR jujutsu principles that were the foundation of their execution? He obviously admired these principles as he inserted them extensively into his expression of karate. There are several possibilities:

1) Ohtsuka taught the SYR idori exactly as he learned them and his students missed the importance of the underlying principles.

2) Ohtsuka taught the SYR idori but changed them by eliminating the SYR jujutsu principles in favor of ones more dependent on strength and leverage.

3) Ohtsuka taught the SYR Idori exactly as he learned them but his students chose to change the underlying principles to reflect their own preferred methods and understanding.

4) Ohtsuka only taught the outward shell of the SYR idori, and never got around to teaching the underlying principles. His students simply filled in the blanks with what they understood.

5) Ohtsuka never really taught the SYR idori, but only demonstrated them, and later his students tried to imitate what they observed him doing.

One thing is certain, the Wado ryu idori, as demonstrated by Ohtsuka's top students are not executed in away that reflects familiarity with the principles employed in the SYR idori. There might still be people alive out there who know the answer to this question. Has anyone asked a guy like Toru Arakawa? If its really important, it's up to you guys in Wado ryu to figure that little mystery out. I'll see Shingo Ohgami in October and ask him, but I think I already know his answer.
Tobin E Threadgill
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai
http://www.shinyokai.com
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