Gusei21 wrote:
Jamie Jewell is hosting Takagi Sensei in Southampton in September 15th 16th and he is having problems getting people to show up because senior Wadokai instructors in the area are telling their students to stay away. Pathetic. Why? Guessing but maybe they don't want their students to spend money on a course that does not put money into THEIR pockets? Or perhaps they are afraid to have their students see someone better than them?
And these are senior Wadokai people in England. What a joke. .
Bob
I think you missed my point. The active branch dojo are involved, as are others who are just interested in training and have joined our previous JKF Wadokai events. The training people will be training. Who else would you want to have in a dojo alongside you?
In your later post you made reference to JKF Wadokai dan grade holders being valid members too. If so, then there are a lot of UK Wado people who should be there too, so be careful what you wish for as Takagi will not be the highest graded person in the room! You might not be aware, but the old UKKW was JKF Wadokai until 1983 so the dan grades were all signed by Hideo Boh. I know they weren't all properly recorded in the dan grade register, particularly some of the earlier ones from the 1965 - 1975 period but the certificates were still issued.
Tim49 wrote:For those of you who remember the American Sitcom ‘Soap’.
“This is the story of two organisations, the Wado Kai and the Wado Kai, Wado Kai Japan and Wado kai Europe….”.... “ Confused? You will be!”
I am already.
From my various Wado Kai contacts I pick up the periphery of the latest plot twists and turns. More complicated than a Restoration Drama, with a list of characters bigger than Catch 22.
Tim Shaw
Essex UK
Hi Tim,
Its not complicated, its just as I described in my earlier post. Not really different to how it was in the UKKW days pre-1983 United Kingdom Karatedo Wadokai. The difference now is that groups can exist independently but maintain a direct relationship with the Japan headquarters.
Lots of groups use the name Wadoryu in the title but it doesn't mean all groups doing so are linked to Jiro Otsuka.It is the same with the name Wadokai as you can see from the google results if you search for All Wado forum. There isn't any organisation by the name of "European JKF Wadokai" or "England JKF Wadokai".
Gusei21 wrote:
Jamie Jewell is hosting Takagi Sensei in Southampton in September 15th 16th and he is having problems getting people to show up because senior Wadokai instructors in the area are telling their students to stay away. Pathetic. Why? Guessing but maybe they don't want their students to spend money on a course that does not put money into THEIR pockets? Or perhaps they are afraid to have their students see someone better than them?
And these are senior Wadokai people in England. What a joke. .
So is it fair to say the above statement is based on misunderstanding?
For anyone else reading this who might still like to join the seminars, the Teesside session details are already on the events section off this forum (although I think its full now) and the Southampton weekend details can be found here: http://library.constantcontact.com/down ... +Jamie.pdf
Gusei21 wrote:
Jamie Jewell is hosting Takagi Sensei in Southampton in September 15th 16th and he is having problems getting people to show up because senior Wadokai instructors in the area are telling their students to stay away. Pathetic. Why? Guessing but maybe they don't want their students to spend money on a course that does not put money into THEIR pockets? Or perhaps they are afraid to have their students see someone better than them?
And these are senior Wadokai people in England. What a joke. .
So is it fair to say the above statement is based on misunderstanding?
No misunderstanding.
More than 25 people will be in attendance because they are directly connected to me in some way. And the majority of them do not reside in England.
If it were not for them the numbers would be really low. Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands.
We shall see. I will count the numbers on the day of the seminar and see how many show up and will query the local instructors and ask how many students they brought.
It will be a pleasant surprise if more locals show up. Glad to hear the other seminar is fully booked.
Been too busy lately to respond to your earlier query. Slammed at work.
Hi Ben/Bob
I don't think the Tyne Tees (for info of Bob, both are rivers in the North East of England) Seminar is fully booked up yet, we still have places available. Bob, are you only doing the Southampton Seminar, or are you joining us up in Teesside? it will be good to see you up here if you could make it. We are hoping to have a few from our group fly down on the Saturday morning for the Southampton Seminar. We are now getting excited for the arrival of Sensei Takagi on Teesside. Hope to see a few from the Forum on Teesside also!!!!
Gusei21 wrote:
Jamie Jewell is hosting Takagi Sensei in Southampton in September 15th 16th and he is having problems getting people to show up because senior Wadokai instructors in the area are telling their students to stay away. Pathetic. Why? Guessing but maybe they don't want their students to spend money on a course that does not put money into THEIR pockets? Or perhaps they are afraid to have their students see someone better than them?
And these are senior Wadokai people in England. What a joke. .
So is it fair to say the above statement is based on misunderstanding?
No misunderstanding.
More than 25 people will be in attendance because they are directly connected to me in some way. And the majority of them do not reside in England.
If it were not for them the numbers would be really low. Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands.
We shall see. I will count the numbers on the day of the seminar and see how many show up and will query the local instructors and ask how many students they brought.
It will be a pleasant surprise if more locals show up. Glad to hear the other seminar is fully booked.
Bob (Nash - not Tracy Bob!)
You have not provided anything to substantiate the claim you've made.It is still unclear who it is you are spitting nails about. All this thread seems to have achieved is to tar the Southampton course with political intrigue that would seem unnecessary even were it be true. I think that is a real shame, particularly for the course organisor.
You have not provided anything to substantiate the claim you've made.It is still unclear who it is you are spitting nails about. All this thread seems to have achieved is to tar the Southampton course with political intrigue that would seem unnecessary even were it be true. I think that is a real shame, particularly for the course organisor.
Ben
Well if you can't figure it out then I don't know what to say.
No wonder some people continue to get away with what they do.
We shall see.
I wonder if any WadoKai group has squad training that day.
Hmmm.
Unnecessary even if it were true?
Really?
And how is this a real shame ? The course organizer will be fine. He's a good man and a great student of mine.
Gusei21 wrote:[Well if you can't figure it out then I don't know what to say.
No wonder some people continue to get away with what they do.
We shall see.
I wonder if any WadoKai group has squad training that day.
Hmmm.
Unnecessary even if it were true?
Really?
And how is this a real shame ? The course organizer will be fine. He's a good man and a great student of mine.
Bob
You've made a rod for your own back here mate and you look extremely foolish to put it kindly.
Its clear you are mixing up 'Wadokai' and 'JKF Wadokai' groups. So, for the avoidance of doubt, there is no boycott by any UK based JKF Wadokai branch that I am aware of.
I think you should read back over the posts you've written these last couple of weeks and ask yourself how that is helping Jamie to promote his seminar and how, in the bigger picture, are you helping create a positive image for JKF Wadokai.
As Mr Sakagami’s unofficial defender :), I can confirm that on a training course last Sunday he asked everyone to support the Tyne Tees seminar if they can.
I have assumed politics were involved here as Martial Arts, especially Karate, seem to be blighted with this in the UK. But, having read your posts Ben, I now understand the situation re the JKF Wadokai groups.
I hope everyone gets out of their particular bubble and attends as (IMHO) the chance to train with the likes of Mr Takagi will not be around for ever and even if you pick up the smallest morsel of what he has to pass on then this will be worth a million trips to your own Dojo
Your latest post has now forced me to put my work aside and render a more thoughtful response.
It is Friday, work is not so crazy so I think this might be a good time. I see that once again you refer to JKF Wadokai branches. In my mind you have created a subset of all potential Wadokai members in the UK. I know many people who do not belong to JKF Wadokai branches but still consider themselves to be members of the Wadokai. But before I begin I want to start by saying the following:
To my knowledge no one is organizing an official boycott of any seminar. Even in 2008 when we had the JKF Wadokai World championships in Vancouver, Canada there was never an official boycott of the event. At that time Mr Sakagami and his friends and in all fairness many of Mr Ohgami’s friends decided that it was in their best interest to throw their energy into their respective European Championships instead of making the trip to Canada. At that time my opinion was that the Wadokai World Championship should takes precedence over any FEW/FWE function and we got into a heated debate over that subject which led to Mr Sakagami being ‘asked’ to fly to Vancouver and we held an inquiry there with President Kondo, Seiji Kondo, Arakawa Sensei, Norma Foster and others. I facilitated that inquiry. At the time I also asked Mr Nukina why he was not present and he told me that Romania is a very impoverished country and people did not have the money to fly to Vancouver. I get that. It is very expensive and the per capita income of Romania is nowhere comparable to other European nations. But France, Italy, the UK, Sweden? This is another reason why we will probably never have another Wadokai World Championships outside of Japan. For either legitimate economic reasons (Mr Nukina) or screwed up priorities (placing the FEW or FWE events over a Wadokai World Championships ) it seems that the Global Wadokai body will not support an international event outside of Japan. For the record Mr Ajari ,Mr Kurobane , Mr Tanabe and Mr Takahashi also refused to participate in the event and they reside just south of the Canadian border so their actions were more inexcusable in my opinion. I know Patrice Belrhiti has made a very generous offer for France to host the next location for the Wadokai World Cup but I just don’t see that happening especially after the debacle in Vancouver. Tokyo is just too expensive for the Wadokai so we might see the next Wadokai World Cup in Nagoya again.
This event in Southampton is a different matter. Mr Sakagami will be present. To my knowledge he has encouraged his people to participate and this is a wonderful thing. Jamie also told me that Peter May called asking about the seminar. My hope is that Jamie’s former instructor, a Wadokai instructor, do the same . I do realize that not everyone gets along and some will stay away because they don’t want to be on the floor with Mr X. This is very unfortunate. Like I said in my previous email I will be on the floor with anyone. I will take instruction from anyone. I wish more people would do the same. My feeling is that for the most part there is something I can learn from anyone. I also think that when the chairman of the JKF Wadokai Technical committee is teaching in the country then any other Wadokai activity in that country should be cancelled or postponed out of respect . Holding squad training at the same time sends the message that what they are doing is just as important if not more important than the Technical seminar. In my opinion that is rude and wrong.
So no, there is no official boycott. But some people are not coming because Mr X is present or because they have bad history with Mr Y. And my point is that this is small minded and pathetic and that the global members of the Wadokai have to move beyond this.
As for who is a member and what is a branch let me clarify.
If you have a membership card from the JKF Wadokai, then you are a member.
And yes, in order to be a member you have to register thru a branch but it can be any branch. And most of us who started branches aren’t registered in our own branches because we had to first be members of a branch in order become a member.
- If you have a JKF Wadokai dan certificate then you are a member.
o Many JKF Wadokai dan certificate holders don’t have membership cards. The JKF Wadokai would love to have you officially register as a member so you can get your card but you are still a member.
o Some people around the world unfortunately have unregistered JKF Wadokai dan certificates. Some of them (those issued by Shintani) are fraudulent. But Shintani is the one who committed the fraud, not the holder of the dan certificate. So even thought you are innocent you are not a member of the Wadokai. Ben mentioned that there are some (many?) people in the UK who have unregistered JKF Wadokai dan certificates. Unfortunately you are not members. I have no idea why they are unregistered but unfortunately it is invalid. If you have one of those certificates then you need to look into why it is not registered.
As for branches, what is a branch? I am just going to copy and paste from the overseas rules and regulations and then elaborate.
Function and duties of branches
Article 8
The branch will have the following functions:
8.1.1 To conduct Kyu gradings and award the achieved grade to its members.
8.1.2 To participate in group competitions or meets.
8.1.3 The branch representative being the branch leader, must be registered with the Headquarters.
8.2 The branch representative must observe the regulations and any other agreement@with the Association and also diligently provide guidance for its members and supervise their technical instruction.
And
Standards for establishing branches
Article 7
If a member wishes to establish a branch, the following procedure must be followed:
7.1.1 In principle, a branch should consist of at least 10 members, one of whom must hold a dan grade.
7.1.2 A facility for regular training must be secured or owned.
7.1.3 No concurrent membership in any other style association or involvement with other styles of karate is allowed.
7.2 Those satisfying the above criteria who wish to establish a new branch in accordance with the provisions stated above, shall petition for registration by submitting the designated form to the Headquarters through their country headquarters.
When a country headquarters has not been established at the time of application, such petition shall be sent directly to the Headquarters.
7.3 When a petition for a new branch establishment is accepted and recognized, the Headquarters shall issue a Certificate of Branch Recognition.
7.4 The branch name cannot contain as a prefix, or as any part of its name or description, the name of the country in which the branch is located.
7.5 Individual branches will be responsible for its own regulations regarding the organization and operations of its routine business.
And before people misunderstand the rules, article 8.1.1. says that branches conduct kyu grading. That does not mean that only branches can conduct kyu grading. ANY dojo can conduct kyu grading. The dojo does not have to rely on branches for that. But it would be a nice thought if several dojos got together and did a kyu exam under a branch. I say this because some people use the overseas rules and regulations and turn it into a Bible type of thing and then start misinterpreting things due to their own filter.
So why branches? Why do we create branches? Does a branch equal a dojo? In Japan many dojos are branches. But up until 20 years ago most overseas dojos were not branches. More recently many countries (America, Sweden, England) started creating branches for political reasons. I don’t use the word political in a bad way. For example in America and England there is no country headquarters. Historically in America there was a time when Mr Ajari was asked by Japan to be the country headquarters. When Mr Ajari was asked to be the head of the country the first question he asked Japan was ‘what is the extent of my powers?’ Do I have the authority to make people obey me?’ The answer from Japan was ‘no’. Country headquarters chairman is not a Shogun title. You need to manage by consensus. So Mr Ajari declined the position. Mr Kurobane wanted the position. But because of the strict hierarchical nature of Japanese relationships he could not assume the ‘throne’ as long as Mr Ajari was around. Then when Mr Ajari retired Mr Kurobane tried to grab it but it did not work out because before he knew it Mr Ajari unretired. By then I began to realize that it was probably not a good idea for either of them to be in charge so to prevent anyone from taking the mantle I started creating branches. Because in theory branches come together to vote on the country headquarters. So whoever has the most branches holds the power. At least in theory. But in this case I want to win but my goal was to prevent them from being in charge, not for me to be in charge. I have no desire to be in charge but giving them the power was not a good thing in my opinion for the country. So for all intent and purposes I created a log jam. There can’t be a country headquarters in the US because I have more branches, more members so it can’t happen without my cooperation. And I am not cooperating because I decided it would just create a bigger hassle for the general membership. And Japan is now seeing things my way and have decided that they will no longer issue any new country headquarters to any country because it only creates more problems.
As for the UK, I don’t know much about the past but in the recent history Mr Wilkinson and Mr Sakagami vied for the country headquarters. Branches were initially created for that purpose. I don’t know the reasons for Ben’s branch. But I do know others were created for that purpose. But in the end Japan decided that giving the country headquarters to one person would disenfranchise the other group. The FEW/FEW split was headache enough. So England will never have a country headquarters for the same reason the US will never have a country headquarters. It is senseless to create a country headquarters if you risk disenfranchising other members. Counter productive.
So given that, why have a branch? Some people like it. It serves as a rallying point. You get more things done. And Wadokai prefers it because they don’t have to send out a billion emails every time they want to communicate anything to its overseas members. All they need to do is send it out to branches who in turn can distribute it to its own membership. So in that sense establishing branches is a good thing because it helps in communicating with Japan. Anyone can establish a JKF Wadokai branch provided there is no country headquarters. They just have to fulfill the above criteria.
Some people also try to create the impression that the only way to become a Wadokai member is thru them. That is total nonsense. Anyone can become a member of the Wadokai. You don’t have to go thru any particular individual to become a member. But once you join you are expected to get along with the others within reason. So if you want to join then find a branch. Any branch. It doesn’t even have to be in your country. I registered people from Armenia, the Domincian Republic, England, the Netherlands, Israel. No big deal. Just send 3000 yen and fill out the form. No one can stop you from joining. No one can stop you from attending any Wadokai event.
I will end this by mentioning the soap opera that occurs every time we have a Wadokai World Cup.
For some reason certain people feel more privileged than others and feel that they have the right to organize the team that will represent their country. And it turns into a cat fight every time.
It shouldn’t be this way but that is what happens. Every time. I have no solution. In the US I tried to hold open team trials but could not get any cooperation. One year we ended up sending two teams to Japan and only mine got to participate because we followed the rules. I felt horrible for the other team but the person in charge was totally at fault. And when I offered to share slots with them in the team competition HE refused even though the competitors wanted to join teams.
Sad. In England someone always feels they are getting left out. I came to the support of Mr Wilkinson one year when he felt he was being marginalized. I strongly support the athletes’ right to compete. Every athlete should have the equal opportunity to make the National team and events should not be rigged to prevent this from happening but it happens almost every time.
My recommendation to the Wadokai was to eliminate representation by country. We should instead have branch competition, not National team competition because we just can’t seem to get along. It is pointless to waste energy like this.
So to wrap this up these are my thoughts:
Any member of the Wadokai is a part of the Wadokai family. You do not have to belong to an official active branch. The JKF Wadokai encourages you to create branches. The JKF Wadokai encourages you to participate in its functions. Everyone has the right to participate. You don’t have to go through anyone special to join the Wadokai. No one has the monopoly, no one is the gate keeper. If anyone creates unrealistic obstacles there are always other options even if you are in a country that has a country headquarters. No one can prevent you from becoming a member. And as a member no one can prevent you from participating in any event. And finally as members we must encourage everyone to participate in our events. I am not saying we are the best Wado organization in the world. There is nothing wrong with Wadoryu Renmei. They have terrific instructors. There is nothing wrong with the WIKF. The JKF Wadokai is just another option. We are the largest. We have world class technicians.
Yikes, I just lost two hours of my life writing this….back to work.