Japanese JutJitsu in Wado

[majin29]

Hi All. I haven't been by in a while- new job and more training keep me busy these days! I'm just wondering how much of Ohstuka's Shindo Yoshin Ryu has been retained in Wado Ryu. I'm in the middle kyu area and have noticed higher ranks doing more locks and grappling amidst atemi. At the more formative belts, we are concentrating on more atemi and karate basics (which is fine BTW). This is a question for the advanced karateka on here as it looks like the higher up one goes, the more blending of both disciplines Wado becomes (karate and JJ).

Am I incorrect in this assumption?

[WadoAJ]

Hi All. I haven't been by in a while- new job and more training keep me busy these days! I'm just wondering how much of Ohstuka's Shindo Yoshin Ryu has been retained in Wado Ryu. I'm in the middle kyu area and have noticed higher ranks doing more locks and grappling amidst atemi. At the more formative belts, we are concentrating on more atemi and karate basics (which is fine BTW). This is a question for the advanced karateka on here as it looks like the higher up one goes, the more blending of both disciplines Wado becomes (karate and JJ).

Am I incorrect in this assumption?

Hi Majin,

I stopped reading after you mentioned throws and locks. There are a lot of styles that teach this. I know nothing of SYR so I can't compare it to that. Lets just say that what 'we' call taisabaki is a different animal as opposed to what the current Shotokan calls taisabaki.

AJ

[oneya]

Hi Majin,

It is common wado ryu lore and we have sound assurances and plausible evidence that we have an Japanese art form that should be seen to be built predominantly around a ‘Japanese’ koryu base (SYR et al.)plus a pinch of Okinawan flavour and the longer one practices the more this is evident. Strangely enough though it also uses this annexed Okinawan gendai element solely as its pro forma adversary but no-one seems to recognise it in this way. Instead the developed and developing all inclusive omote lore has it as the wado ryu against any unknown and unspecified enemy, whereas a little enzan no metsuke can show wado’s whole ‘us versus them’ premise is on the koryu counter to a gendai attack so maybe back in those not so far off 1920s days there would have been a latent psychological – if not a very nearby geographical - threat of some magnitude in the neighborhood.

It may not bear thinking about in today’s climate but perhaps a case could be made that Wado ryu’s Okinawan quotient was the result of Sun Tzu’s ‘know thy enemy’ urgings and Ohtsuka meijin’s premise may well have rested on the neighborhood gendai attacker being nullified by the true Yamato Damashi spirited Japanese koryu warrior.

This is, of course, only conjecture on my part and may be disregarded (half read if necessary) in the light of our present day understanding that the real enemy is often one’s self.

oneya

[laurie]

Hi Majin,
I am but a lowly 1st kyu, so please take my comments in such context. I think that some of the answer to your question may lie within the "Killing me softly" thread and others that talk about the complexities of 'basics', such as juntsuki - 'changes in kata' might have some useful stuff for you. Maybe part of the answer is that the "JJ" is already inside the "karate" that you are training, but it just takes some time for it to come to the surface? I have dug out an old thread from the yahoo board that may also give you some further insight - note that this is almost 10 years old and those involved are more than within their rights to have a revised outlook on the world since the time of publication (if they choose to do so). Hopefully dragging up an old post from another forum isn't considered poor form, but it seems to be relevant to the discussion in hand.
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/wa ... ssage/5665

Regards,
Laurie

[oneya]

Good to see the old forums are still used Laurie, there were some spirited and informative exchanges back then. Fortunately all those guys can be still be found on this forum and will respond to a little prodding when necessary.


oneya

[laurie]

Hi Oneya,
The old forum is indeed a valuable treasure trove of information and I highly recommend others that are not familiar with it to spend a good chunk of time delving through it. Although allwado is still relatively new it has been great to see the pages quickly fill with some really useful food for thought and long may it continue! As the old forum(s) seem to be deprecated now, I have been considering compiling a catalogue of 'best bits' into a document, ideally organised into some kind of topic structure. Nothing lasts forever and it would be a shame to see all those hours of considered (and on occasion not-so-considered!) thought disappear. If anything vaguely coherent arises from this over the next few months I'll chirp up and avail it to anyone else that may be interested in having a look.

Laurie

[kyudo]

Hopefully dragging up an old post from another forum isn't considered poor form, but it seems to be relevant to the discussion in hand.
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/wa ... ssage/5665

A bit unsettling to click the link and see myself addressed in the first line. :-)
10 years already...
This particular post marked my first virtual encounter with Toby Threadgill. Which led to several valuable encounters later, on the tatami and over beer.

In addition, I came to meet a number of other people over the years who I now hold in high regard and in some cases became good friends. To me, it's a reminder of the tremendous value that this kind of discussion groups can have. It's not the dojo. But it sure may lead to life changing experiences.

[oneya]

Hi Oneya,
The old forum is indeed a valuable treasure trove of information and I highly recommend others that are not familiar with it to spend a good chunk of time delving through it. Although allwado is still relatively new it has been great to see the pages quickly fill with some really useful food for thought and long may it continue! As the old forum(s) seem to be deprecated now, I have been considering compiling a catalogue of 'best bits' into a document, ideally organised into some kind of topic structure. Nothing lasts forever and it would be a shame to see all those hours of considered (and on occasion not-so-considered!) thought disappear. If anything vaguely coherent arises from this over the next few months I'll chirp up and avail it to anyone else that may be interested in having a look.

Laurie

Damn good idea Laurie..

Do you tour the wado section of the 'All Karate' site too.? There must be a few years of serious information there also.. and the usual dream-time foolishness.

oneya

[Gary]

Hi All. I haven't been by in a while- new job and more training keep me busy these days! I'm just wondering how much of Ohstuka's Shindo Yoshin Ryu has been retained in Wado Ryu. I'm in the middle kyu area and have noticed higher ranks doing more locks and grappling amidst atemi. At the more formative belts, we are concentrating on more atemi and karate basics (which is fine BTW). This is a question for the advanced karateka on here as it looks like the higher up one goes, the more blending of both disciplines Wado becomes (karate and JJ).

Am I incorrect in this assumption?

Hi majin29,

Apologies in advance if you have read this before (or it has been already mentioned in this thread), but often, when “Jujutsu”and Wado are used in the same breath, there are a number of misconceptions that accompany it.

Tim has a good essay on this so I hope he doesn’t mind me splashing it here:

http://www.wadoryu.org.uk/jujutsu.html

Gary

[Tim49]

Hi All. I haven't been by in a while- new job and more training keep me busy these days! I'm just wondering how much of Ohstuka's Shindo Yoshin Ryu has been retained in Wado Ryu. I'm in the middle kyu area and have noticed higher ranks doing more locks and grappling amidst atemi. At the more formative belts, we are concentrating on more atemi and karate basics (which is fine BTW). This is a question for the advanced karateka on here as it looks like the higher up one goes, the more blending of both disciplines Wado becomes (karate and JJ).

Am I incorrect in this assumption?

Hi majin29,

Apologies in advance if you have read this before (or it has been already mentioned in this thread), but often, when “Jujutsu”and Wado are used in the same breath, there are a number of misconceptions that accompany it.

Tim has a good essay on this so I hope he doesn’t mind me splashing it here:

http://www.wadoryu.org.uk/jujutsu.html

Gary

The article was written a long time ago. I think that much of what has been written since, albeit on a less formal basis, particularly through forums such as this, has gone a long way towards filling in lots of the gaps. Although It's not been entirely definitve and I feel that there is still much of the story hidden from sight, this extra information helps to give a richer picture.

I have recently been researching particular branches of Koryu Jujutsu through contacts in Japan and the USA as part of working on a long term project. There's a wonderful untold story there and as usual I find myself amazed at how partial our information is.

Tim Shaw
Essex UK