When were the kata standardized?

[T. Kimura]

Does anyone know what year(s) The Wado kata were standardized in their (essentially) current form? I saw an "Old Wadokai" video from 1950, and Pinan 1,2,and 3 are demonstrated in contemporary configuration though Nidan is called shodan. I have heard from several people that immediately after the war kata versions varied widely and that many dojos hardly practiced kata at all. When did Ohtsuka sensei incorporate changes that he got from Mabuni sensei; were these changes based on early meetings between Ohtsuka sensei and Mabuni sensei at Konishi's Ryobukan or on later meetings in Osaka? I do see real similarities beween Wado and some of the kata in the 1930's Shotokan video on the web--especially in Chinto/Gankaku and seishan/hangetsu. In other words, does anyone know what Wadoryu looked like in about 1935?

[WadoAJ]

No idea. Wasnt around.
Do you think it might have been "better" at THE time or are you just interested in general.

AJ

[T. Kimura]

No idea. Wasnt around.
Do you think it might have been "better" at THE time or are you just interested in general.

AJ

No, not at all; I am not a "museum" karate guy. I am interested in when the Shitoryu influence came into Wado. Ohtsuka Sensei appears in the 1935 edition of Karate Do Kyohan; and some of the Shotokan I have seen in film from that era does resemble many aspects of Wado. It seems that Bassai, Jion, Jitte, Wanshu, and Chinto have significantly less Shitoryu shadings. The history of the kata would be very nice to know. For example, why did ohtsuka sensei select Rohai Shodan when he definitely knew Shotokan Meikyo and could have gotten matsumora Rohai from Mabuni; when did he decide to drop Bassai sho, Kushanku (Kanku) Sho, and Tekki Nidan and Sandan? I would like to see the karate of all the major styles in 1940.

[WadoAJ]

Mr.Kimura,

Thank you for your reply. I see what you are interested in. I often wondered about these kind of things. Ohtsuka sensei had access to so many kata. Why drop the others? Obviously he must have seen more logic in the kata we practice today or perhaps he found them more beneficial. On the other hand. Maybe he was just human and favored some more over others.

On thing is clear though, the Shotokan of today is not the karate that Ohtsuka sensei practice that time.

AJ

[oneya]

Hi TK

Unless we’re talking about similarity in some technique or tournament shitei kata I don’t see that we have a ‘standardised’ version of wado ryu kata. Technically Wado ryu renmei can be and is often at variance with JFK Wadokai and then Wado Kokusai is different again. It seems to me that Ohtsuka meijin spent quite a bit of time stripping away the repetition and the unnecessary 'style' elements (for his needs) to get the movement that he sought over the years. Various sensei would have been the recipients of his kata at any particular period or season of his life and this is reflected in the major organizations.

So now we have the results in which the practice of wado ryu kata from its intrinsic principles is to develop an understanding of a wado ryu movement that will allow for these variations.

Any recognised similarities would be in the eye of the beholder I guess which probably arise from their own prior experience or perspective.

Oneya

[T. Kimura]

I wast hinking more in terms of time, rather than expression; when did Ohtsuka Sensei establish the kata in the general form (meaning clearly much like what is done today) of Wadoryu, rather than continue teaching the kata largely as he learned them from Funakoshi (which was indeed not the JKA Shotokan of today). My thinking is that Wado kata really solidified between 1938 and 1940. The kata of Karate Do Kyohan (1935) have many points of contact with contemporay Wado--at least as many as with contemporary Shotokan. I am especially interested in Pinan 5 and Kushanku, which reflect very strong shitoryu influence.

[T. Kimura]

On thing is clear though, the Shotokan of today is not the karate that Ohtsuka sensei practice that time.

AJ

This is very true. The Bassai, Jion and Jitte and Wanshu (Enpi) and Seishan and Chinto renderings (Hangetsu and Gankaku) of 1935 karate Do Kyohan--especially in the 1st Japanese edition-- are very like the same kata of JKF Wadokai today --- much closer than to the JKA versions of today.

[oneya]

WadoAJ wrote:
On thing is clear though, the Shotokan of today is not the karate that Ohtsuka sensei practice that time.

AJ

Perhaps this is because the Shoto of today was never the karate practiced by either Ohtsuka meijin or Funakoshi Gichin. Some ninety years later, today's Shoto which is said to be largely the developments of Funakoshi Gichin's son Gigo has no voice in the practice of wado ryu, unlike the Shorin ryu whispers of Itsou Anko who was sensei to Funakoshi Gichin.

Post by T. Kimura » Wed May 16, 2012 3:34 am

I wast hinking more in terms of time, rather than expression; when did Ohtsuka Sensei establish the kata in the general form (meaning clearly much like what is done today) of Wadoryu, rather than continue teaching the kata largely as he learned them from Funakoshi (which was indeed not the JKA Shotokan of today). My thinking is that Wado kata really solidified between 1938 and 1940. The kata of Karate Do Kyohan (1935) have many points of contact with contemporay Wado--at least as many as with contemporary Shotokan. I am especially interested in Pinan 5 and Kushanku, which reflect very strong shitoryu influence.

But I would think it is time that gives it expression if wado ryu is a process.?? Given that Ohtsuka meijin was not simply accepting of the past and Gigo's militant developments in his father's name but more working towards a vehicle more able to give his own philosophy its expression and so the process will remain as long as it involves homo sapiens.

Given wado ryu's anticedents it seems reasonable that Shorin or Shito quotients which, while evident in that two year 1938-40 time span, may well, given the prism, turn out to be only a replicate pinch of condiments continuum from the original pinch of condiments given the evolving differences between Japanese and Okinawan reasoning.

oneya

[T. Kimura]

WadoAJ wrote:
On thing is clear though, the Shotokan of today is not the karate that Ohtsuka sensei practice that time.

AJ

Perhaps this is because the Shoto of today was never the karate practiced by either Ohtsuka meijin or Funakoshi Gichin. Some ninety years later, today's Shoto which is said to be largely the developments of Funakoshi Gichin's son Gigo has no voice in the practice of wado ryu, unlike the Shorin ryu whispers of Itsou Anko who was sensei to Funakoshi Gichin.

Post by T. Kimura » Wed May 16, 2012 3:34 am

I wast hinking more in terms of time, rather than expression; when did Ohtsuka Sensei establish the kata in the general form (meaning clearly much like what is done today) of Wadoryu, rather than continue teaching the kata largely as he learned them from Funakoshi (which was indeed not the JKA Shotokan of today). My thinking is that Wado kata really solidified between 1938 and 1940. The kata of Karate Do Kyohan (1935) have many points of contact with contemporay Wado--at least as many as with contemporary Shotokan. I am especially interested in Pinan 5 and Kushanku, which reflect very strong shitoryu influence.

But I would think it is time that gives it expression if wado ryu is a process.?? Given that Ohtsuka meijin was not simply accepting of the past and Gigo's militant developments in his father's name but more working towards a vehicle more able to give his own philosophy its expression and so the process will remain as long as it involves homo sapiens.

Given wado ryu's anticedents it seems reasonable that Shorin or Shito quotients which, while evident in that two year 1938-40 time span, may well, given the prism, turn out to be only a replicate pinch of condiments continuum from the original pinch of condiments given the evolving differences between Japanese and Okinawan reasoning.

oneya

Very interesting but I think this response is far more poetic and phiosophical (and ultimately more important) than my question. I would love to know when [what year(s)] Wado ryu katas were established in more or less their current form as opposed to the forms Ohtsuka Meijin learned from Master Funakoshi before 1935. As I said, Kushanku is especially interesting in this regard.

[oneya]

OK.

oneya