dan grade policy

[kyudo]

I give the newcomer a choice. They can either put on a white belt or keep the belt they have for up to a year.
Then at that time they must take a test/or not and I will give them the belt I feel they deserve.

That sounds pretty straightforward and reasonable. Do you also pay some extra attention to the student san no ya style? Or do they just go through the regular motions?

[kyudo]

there's a good chance that he does have a strong desire to perform as well as he can. If this is the case then this could be a valuable experience for him and with your help could enable him to see the value in knowledge and understanding rather than the more tangible aspects of the grading system. Maybe adopting the old "honesty is the best policy" approach would reap benefits if you sit him down and talk through with him the issues and concerns that you have?

Thanks Laurie. Good points...

[claas]

kyudo,
Now that we understand each other better this makes no difference, but since I said your logic had a flaw, I think I should point it out now that you asked.

The gradings are not for training. You can very well train without grades.

The latter doesn't imply you couldn't train without grades, in case that grades were there for the training.

Small thing. I hope we do not get stuck here, because from here on this part of the discussion is starting to become boring reading. Maybe we'll move to PM:s if necessary...

In the study of anything at all: a mindset is the last thing anyone needs. A mindset prevents learning.

muda ga nai.

oneya

This is where I am getting at. To write about it we however need words. It is a philosophical quetion is there a mindset of no mindset?
Anyway, thinking about grades represents "the world of mindsets" more than not caring about them. How not to care about grades? That is difficult. How not to have thought about an action? How not to telegraph?
Being unnaturally against grades is also a mindset. Some people talk against grades even more egoistically than some think about their grades. In our thoughts we have to battle against ego and greed by trying to get rid of them without a thought. Of course we fail, but it's good to try.

[oneya]

In the study of anything at all: a mindset is the last thing anyone needs. A mindset prevents learning.

muda ga nai.

oneya

This is where I am getting at. To write about it we however need words. It is a philosophical quetion is there a mindset of no mindset?
Anyway, thinking about grades represents "the world of mindsets" more than not caring about them. How not to care about grades? That is difficult. How not to have thought about an action? How not to telegraph?
Being unnaturally against grades is also a mindset. Some people talk against grades even more egoistically than some think about their grades. In our thoughts we have to battle against ego and greed by trying to get rid of them without a thought. Of course we fail, but it's good to try.

Yes you are quite correct claas, to write we obviously need words but you are wrong in trying to squeeze nuance and flexibility from a set mind which cannot change and so cannot address the issue.

Similarly, the battle against ego is endless if you have to fight against it, it is not a matter of fighting or thinking it is a matter of surrender when you actually give up something that you don't want.

oneya

[claas]

Once again I cannot see here any difference in opinion. Only in words. I say "battle" accompanied by "get rid" and "without a thought", while you say "surrender". Since I agree with what you say totally and think I understand it, I guess we're just trying to find better words, while the content meant is essentially the same.


On the other hand there seems to be a difference in how we understand "mindset". I don't think it is a "mind that is set". I think the mindset can change. I do not even think the "-set" in "mindset" implies anything regarding this "being-stuck-to-a-thought"-question. I only think it means how the mind is at a moment. It doesn't have to be set. It can be free to change. I think the "-set" there refers more to a collection - or in other words: a set - of thoughts and ideas that live in one mind.
Going back to from where we started I might have a mindset that doesn't care too much about grades and kyudo one that does. These things can change depending on how set the mind is to the contemporary mindset. :)

Since English is not my mother tongue and this is just the kind of discussion that requires experience from language usage, I might just as well be wrong here. In that case I can drop the word, because the word was not what was important in the first place.


Stressing that grades do not matter and that learning should be built on strong layers of fundamentals was what I thought was important. That sometimes the fastest and at least the best route is via the beginning. This is the case when the house is too big and the fundamentals too weak.
Sometimes these are not impossible topics in discussion with the people involved. Sometimes people really can remember that training is what's most important to them too and have faith in the teachers ability to judge how the grading system is best used to support the training that is to come.
Of course also Gusei21's system can work. It looks very good and Nash sensei can probably use it well. What's most essential is that I do not think the system is as important as how things work in practice. If everybody is happy and the training is good, it really doesn't matter how this is accomplished.

[oneya]

Once again I cannot see here any difference in opinion. Only in words. I say "battle" accompanied by "get rid" and "without a thought", while you say "surrender". Since I agree with what you say totally and think I understand it, I guess we're just trying to find better words, while the content meant is essentially the same.


On the other hand there seems to be a difference in how we understand "mindset". I don't think it is a "mind that is set". I think the mindset can change. I do not even think the "-set" in "mindset" implies anything regarding this "being-stuck-to-a-thought"-question. I only think it means how the mind is at a moment. It doesn't have to be set. It can be free to change. I think the "-set" there refers more to a collection - or in other words: a set - of thoughts and ideas that live in one mind.
Going back to from where we started I might have a mindset that doesn't care too much about grades and kyudo one that does. These things can change depending on how set the mind is to the contemporary mindset. :)

Since English is not my mother tongue and this is just the kind of discussion that requires experience from language usage, I might just as well be wrong here. In that case I can drop the word, because the word was not what was important in the first place.


Stressing that grades do not matter and that learning should be built on strong layers of fundamentals was what I thought was important. That sometimes the fastest and at least the best route is via the beginning. This is the case when the house is too big and the fundamentals too weak.
Sometimes these are not impossible topics in discussion with the people involved. Sometimes people really can remember that training is what's most important to them too and have faith in the teachers ability to judge how the grading system is best used to support the training that is to come.
Of course also Gusei21's system can work. It looks very good and Nash sensei can probably use it well. What's most essential is that I do not think the system is as important as how things work in practice. If everybody is happy and the training is good, it really doesn't matter how this is accomplished.

OK.

oneya

[Kuroi Tsubasa]

At 15 I think its pretty easy to trade a kuro for a shiro obi
Even at 20 I am ready to shed my current browns again and pick up another white
But I think it gets a lot harder as you grow older or the longer you hold on to your black belt

What bothers most people is the fact that other people would probably look down on them when they see/hear that you are a white belt
My advice ignore it. Just shut your mind off to such matters and train.
One gradually should come to realize that these people who look down on you are probably the people who have least amount of awareness about martial arts and its philosophy in general

3 years ago when I started off again as a white in Wado I somehow ended up against a famous Nidan from a shito school nearby in a state level competition
Before the fight I was pretty much ridiculed and jeered at (the fact that some of them were girls really didn't help much :P )
16 seconds into the first round I dropped a perfect textbook ushiro mawashi geri on the guys face ending the match in a KO
Yep it almost looked like I had kicked the wind out of the audience too xD
Had they known about my other 2 black belts(TKD,Kyokushin) I am pretty sure the reaction wouldn't have been that priceless

Opps I am drifting off the topic now with my story telling
Ummm what I meant was as long as you know your stuff belt of any colour is just the same
As a matter of fact the lower the better ;)
Give that guy a shiro obi and ask him to prove his mettle if he is a true karate-ka I am sure he won't disappoint you

[claas]

Very good points, Kuroi.
Are you 20 years old?

Many people should try to have more respect towards the higher and towards the lower.
I guess in these "holding-on-to-belt"-questions it is basically about respect. Maybe many people do not want to lose the respect they gained in a previous environment, once they come to a new one. In a way this is understandable but when one enters a new society, one should first think about respecting them and not how they should respect you.

All this becomes a lot easier by focusing on training and not that superficial stuff. It isn't always easy, but a good thing to try.

Also the grading system should be respected. Playing around with white belts can also be egoistic. Belts do not matter. Why not just submit to the colour the system "wants" you to have?

[Kuroi Tsubasa]

Very good points, Kuroi.
Are you 20 years old?

Yes sir :)

[WadoAJ]

one should first think about respecting them and not how they should respect you.

Also the grading system should be respected.

Hi Claas,

I guess if you do not respect where they are coming from, you should not think about joining that group in advance?

AJ