Changes in kata

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
oneya
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Re: Changes in kata

Post by oneya »

blackcat wrote: Rather than model the structure on Wadokai, I would suggest a serious alternative for the Wado kokusai to consider must be the option to actually rejoin Wadokai. Some dojo have tried that individually - without success yet as it happens - but for the long term benefit of Wado I would see the group rejoining as a positive. How the integration happens is a problem of course...but some problems can be good to have to deal with. If ever there was a time to do it, it is now whilst the few remaining active generation of Otsuka students are still around to teach.

Ben

Ah bit tardy with a reply, sorry Ben,

Perhaps I first need to clarify that my previous comments were of a general nature because San no Ya doesn't have a voice in WIKF future, my comment was simply addressing the problems of the group that survives the death of a sensei. In this case He was our sensei and the WIKF sensei and in some cases has been so for almost half a century and in other cases many of them for in excess of 30 years so there is much to consider before anyone throws this unique legacy away. Suzuki sensei was a truly unique landmark figure in the growth of wado ryu in his lifetime. He was certainly a man of some considerable talent and spirit but more than this: in much the way that Ohtsuka meijin was the founder of wado in its birthplace of Japan, Suzuki Hanshi very much represented the birth of wado in the western world at least in the UK and European sector. His path was hard but much sought after by his followers. We all owe him an immense debt of gratitude and obligation and, in the case of San no Ya, a personal giri which says our future path in San no Ya must be to continue with his stand alone philosophy and work.

In any philosophy and practice flying a symbol of harmony at its masthead it should go without saying that international and internal harmony throughout the wado word should be a major consideration, but the two wado organisations continued to thrust forward on diverging paths while human frailty seemed to deny the very essence of Ohtsuka meijin’s beliefs and hopes when he outlined his thoughts on peace. The facts of the initial splinter were not in dispute but in the light of historical events an attempt at harmony could well have been the important lesson in the learning for the human seeking enlightenment but then, perhaps it is not possible to be a seeker of dreams when one is a speaker of schemes. Throwing rocks in one’s own path is only of any relevancy if the pathway is clear and pristine when one takes the first step. If we are simply adding to the rocks in situ a collective effort will be more beneficial to ease the road we wish to travel.

Those who knew Suzuki Hanshi well also knew he spent years seeking to re-unite the two major factions after the first division but eventually came to understand the founding of the wado kokusai karate do renmei was his last option if he was to balance the obligations of his life without bias.. It was with this in mind that San no Ya, as an associate member of WIKF felt it necessary to withdraw from WIKF on September 12th 2011 in the belief that our obligations were to Suzuki Hanshi and not the WIKF. This belief has not changed and our aim is to continue to practice in the manner of Suzuki’s teaching for fear that his legacy may be lost if the options are to join either of the two major groups, however we can do this best if we remain true to his path of freedom to develop as individuals within society.

Wado ryu is a strange pursuit in the 21st century with its lowest common denominator echoing the way of the individual versus the hedged bet of the stronger collective voice of the group. I think though that we can be more than this also but we need – as enzan no metsuke urges – a wider view. It is very easy and personally gratifying to follow the daily rote and ritual of dojo life without much thought but there are issues that arise if one takes that wider view. In the general melee of karate there is no doubt that the collective mantra of seeing the group holding a moral high ground, holds sway over the soto voiced integrity of the individual personality but is this a true reflection, or should it be an aim, if our aim is to release and realise the potential of each member to its fullest extent in understanding harmony as a way to producing better human beings in society? History often shows the needs of the individual as a casualty within the group process and I believe both Ohtsuka meijin and Suzuki Hanshi saw their path as diverging from their group when the committee speak grew too costly for the integrity of the group to sustain or the individual to survive without that wider view. Wado is still a work in progress for all involved and Suzuki was certainly one who spoke of this. It would be a huge mistake to toss his contribution away without some serious consideration.

My previous comments on the difficulties WIKF faces in its future in terms of its structure were entirely personal but nevertheless heartfelt. I believe the executive committee and seniors of WIKF have a big job ahead of them and a big part to play still and San no Ya have sincere hopes for its future success. Our feeling is though that all San no Ya dojo must have an open door policy to enable all wado students from all wado organisations irrespective of any other loyalties or obligation can feel welcome and feel free to visit and participate in any San no Ya Suzuki Ha dojo.

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
blackcat
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Re: Changes in kata

Post by blackcat »

tabletop wrote:Its interesting that Wado Kai seem to have a higher regard to the Wado Ryu Renmei Dan grades than WIKF. Any reason why this is?
I wouldn't read quite so much in to it. Renmei exists as an organisation in Japan whereas WIKF doesn't. Although the numbers are few now, there are still people within both groups who trained together back in their university club days. One example is Tokai university, Jiro was teacher there for many years but the students decided they wanted to rejoin Wadokai in the 80's. So there are some Wadokai people who did their basic training under Jiro but continue under Wadokai and for a short time period, some of them would have been members of Wadoryu Renmei and graded there too. The same applied to several other university clubs.

Nowadays, Wado Renmei students participate in many of the same competitions. For kumite there is no difference anyway but if they are entering kata then they use the Shitei kata, so there's an obvious similarity in the training method, which makes it easy enough to assess equivalence. Once it goes beyond 5th Dan, there is a difference because Renmei bestow grades up to 10th Dan and Wadokai go to 8th Dan with a preference on the use of a technical grading instead of an awarded grade.

But what goes on in Japan isn't (or shouldn't be) the be all and end all. Karate has been overseas for 50 years now, that has to be recognised and indeed, Kono pointed this out 20 years ago in an article he contributed to Frank Johnson's much lamented "Wado World" magazine.

However, if karate is going to have a meaningful grading system - and it clearly hasn't always had one - then there has to be a yardstick to measure by or else it is meaningless. So Wadokai has its own set standards about how the techniques are to be done to be recognised as Wadokai and the tests are supposed to be evidence of this. They are not discrediting anyone's ability, but they are saying that in order to be assessed as a Dan grade in the group, which in many cases means your are going to be teaching, then you should be doing your karate in the way that Wadokai do Wadoryu karate.

Ben
Last edited by blackcat on Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
blackcat
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Re: Changes in kata

Post by blackcat »

oneya wrote:[
Perhaps I first need to clarify that my previous comments were of a general nature because San no Ya doesn't have a voice in WIKF future, my comment was simply addressing the problems of the group that survives the death of a sensei. In this case He was our sensei and the WIKF sensei and in some cases has been so for almost half a century and in other cases many of them for in excess of 30 years so there is much to consider before anyone throws this unique legacy away. Suzuki sensei was a truly unique landmark figure in the growth of wado ryu in his lifetime. He was certainly a man of some considerable talent and spirit but more than this: in much the way that Ohtsuka meijin was the founder of wado in its birthplace of Japan, Suzuki Hanshi very much represented the birth of wado in the western world at least in the UK and European sector. His path was hard but much sought after by his followers. We all owe him an immense debt of gratitude and obligation and, in the case of San no Ya, a personal giri which says our future path in San no Ya must be to continue with his stand alone philosophy and work.

oneya
Oh - I hadn't appreciated that there had been a parting of the ways!

Nevertheless, whilst I'm sure any decision on the future of WIKF or your own group, is not going to be based on any musings discussed here, I still believe there is something to be gained for all in the longer term. As your man said, you can't be at your strongest when you are divided.

Apropos Suzuki Tatsuo's legacy, well certainly for many thats a given,but to do it full justice, it would perhaps benefit from being accurately documented to clear the facts from the myth. The same could certainly be said for his teacher too.

Ben
philipsmith
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Re: Changes in kata

Post by philipsmith »

In response to some of the comments alluded to within this discourse, I would like to make three points. Firstly, WIKF after Sensei’s passing was deeply saddened. However the dream of Sensei was that WIKF would be a very closely-knit family of Wado practitioners who share a common goal. We in WIKF who trained directly under his leadership will stay loyal to his wish. Many exponents of Wado will suggest that WIKF is almost at a point of mass exodus. I would submit that is not so. A very small percentage of the many thousands of students in WIKF have chosen to take another path. This small number cannot even be measured in terms of the practitioners that have stayed loyal. We the loyal students of the current leadership and of Sensei wish these former WIKF practitioners well in their endeavors.

Second point I wish to allude too is whenever change occurs there is always unease. WIKF is no different from that perspective to any other organization. However the current leadership that Sensei has put in place has the support of all WIKF students around the world. This is evident in the amount of courses and seminars that Sensei Jon Wicks is being asked to teach on. Sensei would not want dissemination of negative type about any individuals or other organisations. With that in mind we would suggest that others who contribute to any discourse be mindful of the past and respect all Wado practitioners no matter allegiance they hold.

My final point is that all Dan grades attained under Sensei have been hard earned and are a demonstration of commitment and loyalty to both Sensei and WIKF. I feel that the points raised in relation to the grading and how others see WIKF Dan grades, demonstrates a lack of maturity and is something akin to a colloquial thought and certainly not in keeping with the ethos of Wado.

Yours respectfully
Philip Smith 5th Dan Chairman WIKF Ireland.
wadoka
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Re: Changes in kata

Post by wadoka »

Welcome to the forums Philip.

To everyone else, did you also get notification of Philip's new post? I don't know if you did or not after I approved the new post?
Aslan
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Re: Changes in kata

Post by Aslan »

Welcome to the forums Philip.
Aslan Datiev
oneya
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Re: Changes in kata

Post by oneya »

Philip Smith 5th dan chairman Wikf Ireland

Hi Phil, Congratulations on your appointment and welcome to the forum,

We haven’t met yet but as an old Suzuki disciple I appreciate your post to this thread because it enables a welcome opportunity for some dialogue across a few grey areas concerning loyalties and the wado task in reality when a much revered sensei leaves the dojo for the final time. I read with great interest and feel some further consideration must be given to one of your three points, it is the notion that seemingly accords loyalty as only having merit if one remains as a member of a ‘closely knit’ dream family with a common goal.

While I can see this to be an understandably comforting notion for you Phil, it has to be said and recognised also that wado ryu history shows evolution by division and growth as being a very natural process within Japanese martial thought, especially when the issues of loyalty and giri is tempered with respect for the integrity of its individual practitioners and given significant consideration.

Ohtsuka meijin himself set this evolutionary precedent with his creation of Wado ryu from his experiences with koryu in his changing world. Suzuki Hanshi also understood this and certainly followed this example which led him to form his Wado Kokusai Karate Do Renmei. Both Ohtsuka meijin and Suzuki Hanshi themselves were instruments for change in the overall development of wado ryu and the whole concept of wado ryu shows division and development now to be a corner-stone in the pursuit of a way of life encouraging freedom as a core value of harmony within one’s life.

Wado ryu and its direction will obviously mean many things to many different people and I would suggest that we must respect each and every one of these differences if we are not to be governed by personal prejudice or any collective designations foolishly fashioned as a truth. The reality is wado ryu history shows it very differently.
Yes, the study of wado ryu shows a wider mind is a healthier mind, it shows an un-encumbered mind is a non shackled mind. Perhaps this should be everyone's consideration at those future times when wado ryu practitioners of all creeds will pause to consider and evaluate their own path which, if one has a healthy mind cannot fail to note, has already been charted by our forebears based on freedom of thought and freedom itself as a worthy principle.

With sincere regards.
Oneya.
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
WadoAJ
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Re: Changes in kata

Post by WadoAJ »

Hi Philip,

Welcome to the forum.
I haven't read all of this topic to be honest, but I wanted to share my experience regarding the word "loyalty" after reading your post. I understand your point.

My sensei passed away in 2008, his son and myself continued his Dojo. Of course, we are loyal to him and we will always be. There were some students who appeared loyal, but left after he passed away even though it was evident that it is was us who should carry on. That time, I could not understand and I was very disappointed about the actions and choices of several of my sensei's other students. Although some did not came as a surprise, because I picked up on some stuff that was going on when he was reaching the end of his journey here on earth. I guess similar could be possible for members of WIKF.

My loyalty is to Ishikawa sensei and perhaps students who left felt the same. I mean, their loyalty might have been to him but not to his Dojo with another instructor. Hence, after sensei's passing they might have still been loyal in their hearts, but they didn't feel the same to the Dojo. Others might have felt more like you in not being able to leave the Dojo because sensei obviously has chosen the ones to carry on very carefully.

I have been able to put this in more perspective after some years. My point is that perhaps the people who you feel are "betraying" WIKF are actually still loyal to Suzuki sensei and his teachings. I'm sure my sensei wants me to enjoy my karate and develop and devote myself to be and stay happy with my karate and therefore my life. I continued training with Nukina sensei, who has been a valuable support since Ishikawa sensei's passing and now also with Sakagami sensei and Peter May sensei which I'm sure Ishikawa sensei would approve of. He is still in my heart and I think about him every day. Ishikawa sensei once said to me "I want to perfect my own karate". Considering this and all other things I learned from him, he wanted me to perfect my karate. If I do this with him in my mind, I believe my loyalty is forever.

AJ
AJ van Dijk

President & Chief Instructor Wadokai Holland
General Secretary FEW Federation European Wadokai
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Aslan
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Re: Changes in kata

Post by Aslan »

Good post, AJ!
Aslan Datiev
Gusei21
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Re: Changes in kata

Post by Gusei21 »

philipsmith wrote: Sensei would not want dissemination of negative type about any individuals or other organisations. With that in mind we would suggest that others who contribute to any discourse be mindful of the past and respect all Wado practitioners no matter allegiance they hold.

My final point is that all Dan grades attained under Sensei have been hard earned and are a demonstration of commitment and loyalty to both Sensei and WIKF. I feel that the points raised in relation to the grading and how others see WIKF Dan grades, demonstrates a lack of maturity and is something akin to a colloquial thought and certainly not in keeping with the ethos of Wado.

Yours respectfully
Philip Smith 5th Dan Chairman WIKF Ireland.
Philip,


First, does getting a degree from Cambridge mean you can receive the equivalent from Oxford?
I don't anymore expect another university to give me an equivalent degree just because I got one for the same major in another place.
How is this immature? I don't expect the WIKF to give me my equivalent dan grade that I hold from the Wadokai. For starters I know nothing of ohyo kumite or sanbon kumite. Never done it. Never done sword defense either - all things that senior WIKF people seem to practice from my vantage point.
The only reason Wadokai was giving out equivalent ranks to incoming ex WIKF people up to sandan was out of respect for Suzuki Sensei.

Second, what is the ethos of Wado? I never got the bulletin. Do you mean to say we should all play nice since we have a common root?
Many of us here on this forum already do. But we certainly can't dictate what our various organizations do or don't do.

As for people leaving or not leaving the WIKF I already stated that I did not care either way. People have their own reasons for staying or leaving.
However there have been certain decisions made by certain people in the WIKF that I find to be ludicrious. Most of the Swedish WIKF would still be intact had it not been for some dumbass decision making by a few key people. I would love to talk about this over dinner but there is a good chance if you did that you would get kicked out like some people I know.
Bob Nash
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