Mr. E.Eriguchi

[Gusei21]

But as you all know both Shotokan and Wadoryu originally, and for a long time, only employed five dans. I really like that limit for a lot of reasons. I think the higher dan grades do more harm than good. Not as much in Japan perhaps, but very much so in the west. A very senior godan should and would be better in virtually every way than a good strong sandan. But godan is a master grade and I am not sure that levels above that should (can) be graded or quantified. Higher levels exist; but are they not more intangible ?

You must be friends with Oshima Sensei of Shotokan...lol. Deja vu. I had this very conversation with him a long time ago. Funakoshi Sensei gave him a 5th dan so he won't accept anything more than a 5th dan. So his organization has a 5th dan ceiling. Meanwhile in the rest of the karate world we have evolved to a 10 dan system.
The logic in Wadokai is that although we have a 10 dan system we only issue up to 8. The last person they tried to petition to 9th dan was Eriguchi Sensei and that was shot down at the board meeting. Then there is a 15th dan in Hawaii. His logic goes something like 'if that guy is a 10th dan then I am a 15th dan!'. Funny. Sort of like the nuclear arms race. Suzuki Sensei won't go higher than 8 because that is what Otsuka Sensei gave him. I guess Arakawa Sensei won't go higher than 7 because Otsuka Sensei is not around to grade him anymore. (I made that last bit up..)
Each organization is different. I belong to JKF Wadokai and that is how we do it. I believe in the WIKF they go as high as 4th or 5th dan then the rest of the grades are handed out by experience and other intangibles. I don't know what Wadoryu does. But each group seems to make it work for them. Dan grades are important and silly at the same time.
It is silly if it becomes the end. I think as long as it is looked at as a way of measuring someone at a given point in time and can be used as a carrot then why not - and yes I believe it is quantifiable as long as you have the technical eyes to distinguish technique. Something that looks good to one person may look like crap to someone who knows what they are looking at. Yes, technique is quantifiable. Come and expand your knowledge base. No different than becoming a gourmet chef. You just have to take the time to train yourself how to see.

[T. Kimura]

My point is that I see what you are saying. I did not improve. I made a discovery. Now I am on a new track and I need to start improving again. And I'm sure there will be another discovery at some point. That's how things seem to work around here in karateland...time for some HA....(shuhari).

I like this idea and statement very much; this is much the way I see karate. One step forward, two steps back, three steps forward,.....

[oneya]

I’m pretty sure Shu Ha Ri is a tangled process in many western eyes Bob, perhaps because we have the philosophy in the wado heritage but only the very few have the essential sensei/deshi facility to operate the system. It is a great system and perhaps could be operable with some thought, but it really doesn’t travel well in the west and the pioneers lost the control of it so the west designed its own. It seems to me that if the depth of kihon waza necessary for moving the mind is not recognised then the deshi (clients) get restless and move away, or make up their own version. We're still dogged by lack of understanding the process and spurious or mixed messages are another aspect in the west too. Mention Shoto and wado in the same breath, especially in terms of their origins and hey presto the wado ryu hikete will take on antithetical dimensions and proportions. Without the eyes or ears or the discovery gene we can easily trudge the same furrow for many years without a light to see.

It’s a bit like the grading formats that are understood only to the various groups. Ain’t no doubt about it there are many paper tigers happily playing in their mythical kingdoms that would be reluctant to shift from their castle in the air now. I really can’t see Mr Kimura's vote for the “lower numeral designation” can actually cure any rot either.? The rot is much much deeper than that the lower number sounds too much like a deckchair and violin re-arrangement for the Titanic that will only give us musical chairs while the ship still goes down.
I know what Mr Kimura is saying but it bothers me less as I grow older. If by some gigantic miracle we managed to right all the wrongs of our little budo world Hollywood might run short of villains but we would probably have the same comedians.

oneya

[T. Kimura]

You must be friends with Oshima Sensei of Shotokan...lol. Deja vu. I had this very conversation with him a long time ago. Funakoshi Sensei gave him a 5th dan so he won't accept anything more than a 5th dan. So his organization has a 5th dan ceiling.

Interesting you would say that. While I have not seen Mr. Oshima in maybe twenty years, I used to train a lot at the old Melrose dojo--a couple of his black belts were friends I met in college. I think his reasoning in not grading above fifth dan was simply that Master Funakoshi never had a higher rank. Wado was the same way until, when? 1955 or so? One reservation I do have is the very high cost in many organizations of high dan ranks--well over a thousand dollars.

[Gusei21]

One reservation I do have is the very high cost in many organizations of high dan ranks--well over a thousand dollars.

JKF Wadokai 60,000 yen certification fee. 10,000 yen exam fee. So you are out 10,000 yen everytime you attempt the test. You pay 60,000 only if you pass. This is the cost for an 8th dan.

[WadoAJ]

"change is inevitable"

[oneya]

"change is inevitable"

but perhaps not when paying for a Shoto dan grade..?

oneya

[Aslan]

By the way, Mr. Eriguchi was the holder of 10 dan? Is it dan from JKF?

[poppe10]

Hello all.

Eriguchi Sensei was also a board member of International Budo University and a friend of Matsumae Sensei (IBU founder) and friend of Kano Shihan...
He was the key person in the process that entitled me to enroll to IBU as a special exchange student not as part of the Bekkasei program or Uni to Uni exchange program.

When I arrived there he had sent me a note encouraged me to experience as much Budo as possible while at Budai in fact least of all Karate since his opinion was that I could already acquire top Karate instruction from elsewhere already...

And in fact this advice lead to one of the foundation concepts on which the activities in International ABCD, ABCD Japan, Shougaisha Budo Kyokai and ABCD Budokai SWEDEN relies on today.
So I realize if Eriguchi Sensei had a great impact on Wado he also had a great impact on our activity!!

Cheers,

/pontus.