Suparenpei

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
Gary
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Re: Suparenpei

Post by Gary »

T. Kimura wrote: Perhaps Wado's ultimate evolution would have been into a formation of sogobudo rather than a school of karate.
As I understand it, Sogo budo/bujutsu means comprehensive - ie a school that covers both Jujutsu, Kenjustu kogusoku etc., etc., not sure what you are getting at?

[edit] And whilst a lot of Wado principles and processes may have come from these schools, I dont think that is what Otuska had in mind exactly.

Gary
Gary Needham
Walton Wado Karate Club

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T. Kimura
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Re: Suparenpei

Post by T. Kimura »

Well, I simply mean that given its scope and range and its clear elements of jujitsu and iaido as well as karate, and western boxing, and even its connection to certain healing arts, that Wado might have evolved into an art that sees itself as comprhensive---a free standing comprehensive new martial art--WADO.
All Blessings, C. Tak Kimura
oneya
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Re: Suparenpei

Post by oneya »

T. Kimura wrote:These are all pretty enriching resonses. There is a lot of collective understanding and experience here. I actually neither know nor practice Suparenpei. It does, however, feel "right" to me to have at least one somewhat authentic naha te kata in a syllabus. The nine core kata constitute most of my own practice. I teach and practice only 15 kata. As far as the "Okinawan-ness" of Wado, I think there are some semantic issues, rather than technical, involved. Wado can not be so distant from its sources that it is no longer karate. I think it is important to see Wado very much as a school of karate Do and not as a school of jujitsu. If I am not mistaken Suparenpei was included, in writing, to Dai Nippon Butokukai in the original Shenshu Wadoryu Karate jutsu syllabus, and was practiced in the Shinkokai/Shinbukai before the war. I was wondering if anyone did it just to see if any kind of otsuka version was still practiced or remembered. I obviously agree that Wado is the most Japanese (meaning grounded in Japanese kobudo) of all karate do. Perhaps Wado's ultimate evolution would have been into a formation of sogobudo rather than a school of karate.
Hi TK,

There was a very creditable and credible version of suparinpei on you-tube a while back, it was performed by JFK’s Koji Okumachi 6th Dan, I went back to look but it is no longer available it seems. It was credible because it wasn’t a CC of shitoryu or goju version but very wado in its dynamic and creditable because Koji Okumachi was World Wado kata champion in 1994, and has for many years been the kata coach to Wadokai Japan. Beyond that, Guseikai or Blackcat can probably give you more info on Okumachi than I can.

Tim's already mentioned a longish discussion on Suparinpei and the bunkai/kaisetsu difference in wado thinking on this old site http://www.all-karate.com/forums/index. ... =1470&st=0 that adds to the understanding and reasoning and hopefully removes it from the 'semantic issues' pejorative. In this regard I would say it is more a matter of kanji differences that Ohtsuka meijin used (for instance: kata 型 or kata 形 and bunkai 分解 or kaisetsu 解説 )to differentiate wado ryu's principles, ethic and core dynamic from its Okinawan influence.

It probably doesn't really matter what we call it and for some there probably isn't a right or wrong way to practice unless we recognise that what we have now is a 21 century global wado diaspora that has flourished since the 1950s which suits many people, some of whom wish to improve their wado ryu by adding to the mix while others prefer to strip away the excess and work from the core principles and ethic that Ohtsuka meijin appeared to be constantly refining.

What we do need to think about is its longevity and its easiest form of identity for its shu heritage and portability. In the long run, the winnower may end up with a few principles to play with that would send the kata collector into premature hibernation for long winter periods while the razor wielding winnower figures the kata collector may end up with a generic brown soup for his troubles. In the final analysis though it comes down to the dojo and the individual and the strengthening (or diluting) the simple essence of Wado ryu as a worthwhile endeavour by uncovering a unique path of discovery while, if we are open to it, lifting the veil of self delusion.

oneya
Last edited by oneya on Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
T. Kimura
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Re: Suparenpei

Post by T. Kimura »

Thank you. I went to the old site and read the very long discussion. I suppose we will never see the kata as Otsuka sensei taught it. In the absence of a really authoritative version, all that is left is Shitoryu, since it is certain that Otsuka sensei did not learn the Goju version. And if I wanted to do a shitoryu naha te kata just for the sake of it, I likely would not choose suparenpei. We hit a dead end I guess, but an educational one to be sure.

All Blessings TK
All Blessings, C. Tak Kimura
blackcat
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Re: Suparenpei

Post by blackcat »

Not sure if it was mentioned in the link thread posted above, but in 'Wado World' magazine, there was a report of a dojo opening ceremony in which Shiomitsu and Kazutaka Otsuka made a demonstration. There is a photo of Shiomitsu and it says he performed suparinpei kata. No details were provided about which version...maybe he learnt it from Kono?

Ben
shep
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Re: Suparenpei

Post by shep »

dkc wrote:I remember asking about this kata a long while ago..........Never dared mention it since LOL
Its NOT in our humble syllabus.
Hi Trevor

From what I remember your students told you they wanted to learn it, so you were searching the internet for it so that you could learn it from Youtube and then go back to the dojo and teach your students, I think that is what drew the condemnation.

But thats all history now ;-)

shep
dkc
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Re: Suparenpei

Post by dkc »

Of course shep thats why you recall it !!!
At the time it was an innocent question.
It was never intended to rattle so many cages.
T. Kimura
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Re: Suparenpei

Post by T. Kimura »

I don't know if learning a kata, especially if you have knowledge of that kata family, from a digital source is all that improbable. I think I could do it.
All Blessings, C. Tak Kimura
oneya
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Re: Suparenpei

Post by oneya »

I have to wonder though, why would you do it if it smacks of fabrication and lacks the wisdom that the dojo experience with a sensei will bring with it.


oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
T. Kimura
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Re: Suparenpei

Post by T. Kimura »

oneya wrote:I have to wonder though, why would you do it if it smacks of fabrication and lacks the wisdom that the dojo experience with a sensei will bring with it.


oneya
Ha ha !!! I wouldn't !!!!!! But mainly because I only practice 15 kata and I have known them forever. But I think a person with a good grasp of kata and good basics could easily learn from a good DVD with all the top views and breakdowns and slow speed stuff and different angles. I do like to watch videos of people doing kata I know. And I think I still learn stuff sometimes. Who knows? learning is a funny thing and different people have different modalities. A good teacher is best but not many people have one.
All Blessings, C. Tak Kimura
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