Mr. E.Eriguchi

[T. Kimura]

I think karate in general would have much benefited by never expanding the ranking scale above godan. The higher ranks serve no real purpose. A person is usually at their strongest and highest technical level at about yondan. After that, they are getting older. How can a 57 year old be technically better than a 30 year old yondan? the older person may very well be experientially much more mature, but the technical level drops off. Any rank above godan, if it exists at all, should be strictly based on teaching, seniority, and service. The nature of mastery beyond technique does not lend itself to testing or evaluation. It is something recognized but not quantified.

[oneya]

I think karate in general would have much benefited by never expanding the ranking scale above godan. The higher ranks serve no real purpose. A person is usually at their strongest and highest technical level at about yondan. After that, they are getting older. How can a 57 year old be technically better than a 30 year old yondan? the older person may very well be experientially much more mature, but the technical level drops off. Any rank above godan, if it exists at all, should be strictly based on teaching, seniority, and service. The nature of mastery beyond technique does not lend itself to testing or evaluation. It is something recognized but not quantified.

So why do we need gradings at all except for shoring up human frailty. Being 'at one's strongest' is a strange statement in the consideration of the accumulation of wisdom. If we are looking for the measure of a man then the integrated person does not need a certificate or grade. There are scant uses and little power, breath or spirit in certificates, dan grades or the judgement of others. Age – either way - is simply part of life and living and of little consequence unless we consider youth is wasted on the young.

oneya

[Gusei21]

I think karate in general would have much benefited by never expanding the ranking scale above godan. The higher ranks serve no real purpose. A person is usually at their strongest and highest technical level at about yondan. After that, they are getting older. How can a 57 year old be technically better than a 30 year old yondan? the older person may very well be experientially much more mature, but the technical level drops off. Any rank above godan, if it exists at all, should be strictly based on teaching, seniority, and service. The nature of mastery beyond technique does not lend itself to testing or evaluation. It is something recognized but not quantified.

I beg to differ. I don't know you at all so I don't know where you are from or where you learned your Wado.
But if you learned your stuff in the US then I can see why you could have that opinion.
Wado knowledge has not exactly been on par with Japan for the past 50 years.
Go to Japan. Take a test. Watch an exam. Then I will ask you again. Yes some people are old and slowing done.
Others are over 60 and still better than most.
If you live in California then you should go train with my guys. I guarantee that as long as you are not broken they will make you technically better.
Send me a private message and I will send you their info.
Consider this a challenge to your statement.. lol. You have nothing to lose and what if you do get better?
I am the best I have ever been and I am better today than I was 2 weeks ago.
And I am talking technique. I am faster and more efficient in mass transfer.
Perhaps I am getting better only because I was one hell of a slacker back when I was young?
One reason I never make videos of myself is because I laugh at what I see when I see myself on video.
It just look awful. And I certainly have no desire to see my technique when I was 30. It is awful compared to what I can do today and I hope that tomorrow I will be better than I am today.
A lot of people I know just do the same stuff year after year but that is only because they have questionable instruction.

Karate is more than kumite competition. I might not be able to beat myself at 30 in a kumite match today but I could easily send the 30 year old to the hospital a lot quicker because my punch has more quality. (faster/heavier/more penetration power).
It's true I can't play basketball anymore. The court seems longer and the basket seems higher. I haven't dunked in 2 decades. My body can't do what my mind demands it to do.
Not sure why it is different. Perhaps a different skill set? Karate can be done in a shorter burst at a closer distance? I don't know. I just know I am better at karate today and I am still improving. Not sure for how much longer because I realize all physical activities have a breakeven point where your skills do start to eventually decline. But 57? That is still too young!

[Gusei21]

If we are looking for the measure of a man then the integrated person does not need a certificate or grade. There are scant uses and little power, breath or spirit in certificates, dan grades or the judgement of others. Age – either way - is simply part of life and living and of little consequence unless we consider youth is wasted on the young.

oneya

Yes, youth is wasted on the young...
In the end the opinion of my Sensei is the only thing that matters to me.
I'm not sure how I will make the transition once he is gone.
Perhaps I'll just stick to windsurfing.

[Gusei21]

There is always room for improvement no matter how old you are.
I know an instructor who has a JKF 8th dan and who keeps failing his Wadokai 8th dan.
The reason? His tobikomi/nagashizuki.
Until he improves that technique to an acceptable level he will never pass his 8th dan.
Why does he fail?
He is too tight. He tries to muscle his technique thereby telegraphing his movement.
And because he is too tight his punch does not have extention.
He is not using his hands as an extention of his body.
We need to be striking with our body and not with our hand.
We can't be kicking off our back leg.
And until he can demonstrate this he will keep failing.
Can he get better? Of course.
What will it take? A change in his perception/understanding of tobikomi/nagashizuki.
Changing our perception of how something needs to be done is a tough one especially if you have been doing it for years.
He wants to kill everything in front of him. That is his mindset. So it ends up being tight and you can see him coming from a mile away because he telegraphs.
You can teach an old dog new tricks. At least I hope so for his sake since he really wants to pass someday.

[oneya]

Ah perhaps not necessarily room for improvement Bob but room to discover if that is indeed a different pursuit? And while it is not something we should dwell on but there is no doubt in my mind it’s all about good beginnings, linkages and the development of Shu Ha Ri.

Every Swiss watch needs a diamond connection at its core and linkages to ensure its precision and accuracy is a constant. Wado is like this.

Wado is also incremental and after a drawing the many threads together for a few years.. and to do this you need to have the strands in your possession for these long years - Wado needs that moment of epiphany when these same strands forge the linkages. When this happens it begins to 'download' great chunks of the whole program. It is not a case of re-reading the manual each time so much as an individual act of creativity. It becomes more the manual installation and absorbing the physical structures, plus the emotional and intellectual pathways and synapses before this epiphany can evolve and begin to happen.

My opinion is Wado must be something we chew on a daily basis. It is not just for tournament or certificates but something distinctly personal and of intrinsic value to strive for in testing one’s resolve and tenacity during the trial. It is not really a question of pass or fail because either of these will end the striving experience and that is not really our purpose, our purpose is to practice wado as long as we’re able. It is an old guy’s raison d’etre.

It is just what we do and while it is not a universal panacea I have known wado, within its fabric, redress an adolescent’s mindless sexism and in another case alleviate a potential bigot’s cancer of racism so I am quite hopeful it can go some way as a healing agent for the myopia of ageism.

oneya

[claas]

Perhaps it doesn't have so much to do with Eriguchi anymore, but about why some physical skills improve and others decline over the years...
Sports generally put a bigger emphasis on outer muscles and martial arts on inner muscles. Of course everything focuses on everything, but there still is a difference. An intresting thing is boxers who tend to be able to be on a high level later than competitors in other sports. I'd guess their physical decline starts before 30 but their inner muscles, skill and experience improve more than a decade after that. They might be on a good enough level still around 40 for that sport on the top level. In other sports men in their forties very often are too old.

And comparing Wado to boxing. We have to remember that being in the ring with heavy gloves, fighting an opponent for many rounds full-contact is very exhausting. You can't in the same way say Wado would have a "constant exhaustion level". (Well neither does boxing, but Wado goes a degree further.) It's not a sport. When technique improves, it consumes less energy and gives more to the primary purpose. So poor physical condition on some areas can be compensated a lot by skill and a body developed more for the purpose. A Wado-body is more efficient for Wado than a soccer-body. In Wado the best season might be 5-10 years before death in many cases where the training is very active, or what do you think?

[Aslan]

Perhaps it doesn't have so much to do with Eriguchi anymore, but about why some physical skills improve and others decline over the years...
Sports generally put a bigger emphasis on outer muscles and martial arts on inner muscles. Of course everything focuses on everything, but there still is a difference. An intresting thing is boxers who tend to be able to be on a high level later than competitors in other sports. I'd guess their physical decline starts before 30 but their inner muscles, skill and experience improve more than a decade after that. They might be on a good enough level still around 40 for that sport on the top level. In other sports men in their forties very often are too old.

And comparing Wado to boxing. We have to remember that being in the ring with heavy gloves, fighting an opponent for many rounds full-contact is very exhausting. You can't in the same way say Wado would have a "constant exhaustion level". (Well neither does boxing, but Wado goes a degree further.) It's not a sport. When technique improves, it consumes less energy and gives more to the primary purpose. So poor physical condition on some areas can be compensated a lot by skill and a body developed more for the purpose. A Wado-body is more efficient for Wado than a soccer-body. In Wado the best season might be 5-10 years before death in many cases where the training is very active, or what do you think?

Good motivation!))
It gives me hope, that my best karate is in the future.)))
Despite the fact that today I am forty years old.))

[T. Kimura]

These are all very interesting, and thoughtful replies, much more thoughtful than my statement about dans. I never would mean to say we don't get better with age or cannot improve technically--though we must lose some balance, speed and power. Kata can improve tremendously. Forty years of practice is forty years of practice. But as you all know both Shotokan and Wadoryu originally, and for a long time, only employed five dans. I really like that limit for a lot of reasons. I think the higher dan grades do more harm than good. Not as much in Japan perhaps, but very much so in the west. A very senior godan should and would be better in virtually every way than a good strong sandan. But godan is a master grade and I am not sure that levels above that should (can) be graded or quantified. Higher levels exist; but are they not more intangible than tangible? I have no problem with these dan levels except for the question who really gives them? And on what basis? As you all point out, some are technical grades, some recommended, some obtained more easily, others much more difficult, some represent lineage and some heritage. Some were based on service, others on technical level alone. All that variation does not make for a very good standard of measure! Ohtsuka sensei has been dead a very long time. (And even he gave some very hard to justify high dan gradings, especially in the Americas). I think it all comes out in the wash, but I just like five dan systems--they seem less ambiguous to me. You know, the five levels of enlightenment? Also I think 6-8 were pretty much service, seniority, and teaching skill grades originally in Wadokai. I have absolutely no problem with that. But an 8th dan test sounds kind of....like over kill?

[Gusei21]

Ah perhaps not necessarily room for improvement Bob but room to discover if that is indeed a different pursuit? And while it is not something we should dwell on but there is no doubt in my mind it’s all about good beginnings, linkages and the development of Shu Ha Ri.
oneya

Yes Oneya, I see the difference. Improvement is what I see as getting better as you follow the same track. Discovery is finding a new track.
I made a discovery when I was talking to my sensei last week...or whenever it was...losing track of time.
After all these years I did not see a critical ingredient in his technique. He has been telling me the solution for years but I did not have the ears to listen. All the drills he taught me were consistent for that end but I was using the drills in a slightly different manner. It was still useful and brought me far but I hit a wall until I discovered the obvious. Now I have to go back and redo all my kihon and kata. Recalibration time. I thought I was listening. I heard the words but kept doing the same old stuff. It was always in front of me but I was trapped in the classic karate paradigm pulling to punch which has it's place but Wado has a unique slant on it that changes the variable in a major way.
My point is that I see what you are saying. I did not improve. I made a discovery. Now I am on a new track and I need to start improving again. And I'm sure there will be another discovery at some point. That's how things seem to work around here in karateland...time for some HA....(shuhari).