Changes in kata

[omote]

Most of them in the JOG have had something changed in the last decade. I see no one performing kata exactly as Ohtsuka sensei did in the published videos.

What is JOG?

Sorry. Auto correct. Should say, "JKF".

Thank you to all for the replies. I am in the same space as Oneya and Gusei21, in that I don't really think "kata can never be changed" is a practical goal in Wado. I cannot speak to Yagyu Shinkage ryu, or the Okinawan ryu, as they are well outside my view. I more intended to get confirmed that in the end, as Oneya and Yabumi have indicated, if you keep tying your obi long enough, eventually your teacher will move on and you are left to find your own way. I might add that this eventuality also lays the total responsibility of finding the best way to transmit this information to those who look to you as the source. And that in this circumstance where Mr. Arakawa, Mr. Hakoishi, Dr. Takagi, etc are today, the kata are indeed continuing to evolve, even if only in search of better ways to get a given result in the student.

Gusei21 - I am glad to hear you also have that experience with Sensei. A weekend spent with Takagi sensei, or yourself for that matter, brings the same result to us. While I still struggle with making the correct outer shape of the kata, most of the corrections I receive these days are on the inside. The outside looks the same, but on the inside I'm an uncoordinated mass of mis-firing synapses! I leave each gathering thinking, "remind me again why I do this?" LOL!

Thanks to all for the insight.

Omote

[oneya]

It occurs to me though that because lineage is not the same thing as heritage, when Ohtsuka meijin said ‘there is only training’. and we take this as a given we are still going to find different rocks in our path because we start in very different places. Our experience in trying to follow in Ohtsuka meijin’s footsteps – if not his experience - may very well be developed to a reasonable omote facsimile but we would struggle forever to replicate his ura wisdom and his unique understanding. All too evident also is the fact that we in the western world start with a heavy emphasis on the Okinawan aspect rather than its quite different mainland Nihon koryu root culture in most cases, to say nothing of its non transferable Yamato Damashi overlay which clouds our prism even more and not everyone knows a guy from Evergreen with a lens cleaner..

What perhaps follows then is the rocks in our path are our own to move or detour as the wisdom of Shu Ha Ri indicates and Ohtsuka meijin demonstrated. Perhaps it was ever thus for the seekers and fools in white pyjamas where a time comes to heft the gonads, as the message on the arrow says, and start following from the front.

oneya

[Gusei21]

What perhaps follows then is the rocks in our path are our own to move or detour as the wisdom of Shu Ha Ri indicates and Ohtsuka meijin demonstrated. Perhaps it was ever thus for the seekers and fools in white pyjamas where a time comes to heft the gonads, as the message on the arrow says, and start following from the front.

oneya

The problem with the above statement is that most people do not have the wisdom of shuhari. They think their pair have grown enough and they start leading from the front and like lemmings take people off the cliff with them.

They run around modifying Wado with knowledge comparable to green belts in my dojo. We have too many inmates trying to lead the asylum.
The purpose of a sensei is just that...to go before.. and life is good when you have someone leading the way.
My gravy train will not last forever and I realize that someday the train will enter the final depot.
I kinda like the size of my gonads. i don't wish to make them bigger.
My solution to this problem is to train as hard and fast as I can while my head honcho is still breathing.
I sit around now thinking that what he wants me to do is next to impossible. My hands will never move as fast as his. My posture will never be as perfect as he wants. My bits can't coordinate the way he demands. My movements are not large enough.
The only advise I have for people is to find a good teacher and forget about shuhari. Shuhari will find you if it ever becomes necessary.
Oneya, you are truly gifted. How you know what you know about Wado still baffles me. I mean...your Sensei wasn't exactly hands on and his train has entered the final depot so you and your brothers have no choice but to answer the calling of shuhari and you guys are more than capable of doing so. I still have time to just SHU around and occasionally HA it. I think of all the people I know outside of Japan you are the one most capable of filling the void left by your Sensei. But yeah....they would never ask you. That would require wisdom on their behalf and there is a huge shortage of wisdom in the karate world. Is it just me or does karate have the monopoly on stupid?

.+

[oneya]

You are right of course. In your place I could have written your reply verbatim Bob (except for where a good helping of humility is needed of course..)but good fortune wasn’t on the cards.

As for the lemmings I knew they would head for the cliff even as I mulled over mentioning the Shu Ha Ri distinction and then realised the western shogo titles magnates might well add more bling to their market stall but this wasn’t a issue knowing very few things are only marginally within any control of mine in a world with the badass budo bling boys already are in their palmy ascendancy and further knowing they are already all they will ever be anyway.

Ah Suzuki, yes well he was never a hands on sensei as you note but he made up for that with his feet and fists, he too wanted more than was possible in the matters of speed and made us aware that if your hands can’t be that fast then perhaps slowing down the opponent should be a primary consideration. As for his kokutsu dachi being a season or three before Ohtsuka meijin segued into tate seishan dachi; it is the only practice that I can see advancing years being responsible for so I can practice that without any ghosts in the dojo. My pet hate though and I see it all over is the half hearted 17th posture of Kushanku instead of the stretch that we see on Oghami’s early kata book. There are some very destructive people in this karate world that surely must be among that monopoly that wouldn’t make that green belt level in your dojo.

Ah well, keep taking the tablets.

oneya

[blackcat]

Change in kata isn't necessarily always a bad thing is it? Perhaps it is better to understand the rationale of the change first and then decide. Of course the ability of the person(s) who has made that change must be a factor.

If we look at one example, seishan open hands part, one hand makes a drawing down motion concluding in the kata with the hand by the hip. This is repeated three times. If you watch film of Otsuka doing this, he tends to turn his hand quite early in the drawing motion. In the Wadokai method, this has been standardised so that the hand turns much later as it nears the hip. Now, we can either watch the film, fold our arms and declare "that's been changed!" or we can understand why the seniors have introduced that change. If you follow their reasoning then you can see they have applied a principle to the movement which we and future generations of Wado students need to understand. There are other examples where the method of performance differs slightly from the exact method which Otsuka himself practised.

On a personal level, I see it as quite interesting to compare the changes and then we can look back further to see the origins of the kata movement whether its in Funakoshi's kata or Mabuni's kata, you can look and see how the kata was then when Otsuka learnt it originally.

Another side to this is that, confronted with what we see as change, we question it. Actually it may be we've misunderstood it or not learned it correctly in the first place. Alternatively, we've progressed further and are able to appreciate another way to perform the movements. One example of this, Pinan Nidan, 3rd move (changing from junzuki on your left side to gedan barai on your right side). Suzuki's grading book show this as a backward motion with a diagonal step with your right foot. That's fine for teaching people the kata, but you have to move on from this as you begin to learn to move your body correctly. I am sure there are countless other examples like this.

Ben

http://www.ManchesterJKFWadokai.org

[oneya]

Hi,

I think changes in kata are inevitable given the global developments of any style of karate Ben. The Shu Ha Ri philosophy guards against it but it requires a hands on sensei to student relationship that both understands it and is consistent over the years. Japanese and Okinawa culture has all the building blocks within its ethos to sustain this but tipping any cultural art out globally from its ethnic nest is destined to bring change. Even more so when the global scene is a market place where profit in many different forms introduces and qualifies ‘success’ in market terms. Our problem then becomes: how do we guard against indiscriminate global change when doing this.

JFK wado kai’s group ethos is set up for this and works extremely well but it has taken nigh on fifty years for the global wado consciousness to develop where this is possible. The Ohtsuka extended family wadoryu renmei is another such success that holds its central family and philosophy tenets close in its pedagogy.

Up until recently Suzuki Hanshi’s wado kokusai held its share of trenchant loyalty and development through close to half a century of glorious autocracy which has sustained throughout his tragic loss and inevitable soul searching. It is at the crossroad still where any technical skill will need to be bolstered by both a empathetic capacity for cultural and idiosyncratic balance in any leadership differences. The change cannot be simply ‘ the king is dead, long live the king, because its change must now be from the autocratic to something more democratic, moving from a kingdom to a republic, perhaps resembling the JFK Wadokai model if it is to gather strength in the difficult years ahead but certainly there’s a need to to stretch and perhaps see something like Plato or Paulo Freire’s works up there on the bookshelf alongside anything by the old martial arts masters.

I don’t feel that the changes in kata that we see at these levels of authenticity are actually anything of a problem Ben. In fact I feel they illustrate the shu ha ri philosophy of a deeper cultural wisdom that binds without chafing for both its leaders and followers. It is the way of the old that blends easiest with the new.

It is when we slip on the snake oil and chicanery of self delusion that kata changes cause an involuntary double de-clutching in my sphincter.

oneya

[blackcat]

Up until recently Suzuki Hanshi’s wado kokusai held its share of trenchant loyalty and development through close to half a century of glorious autocracy which has sustained throughout his tragic loss and inevitable soul searching. It is at the crossroad still where any technical skill will need to be bolstered by both a empathetic capacity for cultural and idiosyncratic balance in any leadership differences. The change cannot be simply ‘ the king is dead, long live the king, because its change must now be from the autocratic to something more democratic, moving from a kingdom to a republic, perhaps resembling the JFK Wadokai model if it is to gather strength in the difficult years ahead but certainly there’s a need to to stretch and perhaps see something like Plato or Paulo Freire’s works up there on the bookshelf alongside anything by the old martial arts masters.

oneya

Rather than model the structure on Wadokai, I would suggest a serious alternative for the Wado kokusai to consider must be the option to actually rejoin Wadokai. Some dojo have tried that individually - without success yet as it happens - but for the long term benefit of Wado I would see the group rejoining as a positive. How the integration happens is a problem of course...but some problems can be good to have to deal with. If ever there was a time to do it, it is now whilst the few remaining active generation of Otsuka students are still around to teach.

Ben

[Gusei21]

I would suggest a serious alternative for the Wado kokusai to consider must be the option to actually rejoin Wadokai. Some dojo have tried that individually - without success yet as it happens - but for the long term benefit of Wado I would see the group rejoining as a positive. How the integration happens is a problem of course...but some problems can be good to have to deal with. If ever there was a time to do it, it is now whilst the few remaining active generation of Otsuka students are still around to teach.

Ben

It is already happening. in Sweden several WIKF dojos have already converted to the Wadokai. The senior blackbelts in those dojos have taken, passed and have been awarded Wadokai dan grades. Some of you recall the tanto video from the WIKF tanto competition that was posted here on our forum. The two who won the event are now Wadokai members. In the past the Wadokai accepted up to WIKF sandans to transfer to the Wadokai without having to retest. Unfortunately at the moment the Wadokai has placed that policy on hold but this has not deterred some of the WIKF members with senior dan grades to restart from shodan in the Wadokai which has impressed some of the senior Wadokai leadership.

The last person who managed to get a Wadokai transfer was a former WIKF person from the Dominican Republic last year. He converted his organization to the Wadokai. This trend will continue to increase.
So for now everyone who wants to come to the Wadokai from the WIKF must restart from shodan. I realize this will be very difficult for some people. They need to decide whether joining the Wadokai as a shodan is more valuable than remaining in the WIKF. Wadoryu people are still allowed to transfer their grades up to 5th dan. I think this policy too will come to an end once the current Wadoryu leadership passes away.
I am not saying any of the above is a good thing or a bad thing. I am just stating facts. I personally don't have an opinion about whether the WIKF or Wadoyu should merge with the Wadokai. I think people join groups for different reasons and most people are happy with what each group has to offer. I have friends in both organizations who are happy with where they are and have no desire to cross over. There are good people and crazies in all organizations.

[tabletop]

Its interesting that Wado Kai seem to have a higher regard to the Wado Ryu Renmei Dan grades than WIKF. Any reason why this is?

[Gusei21]

Its interesting that Wado Kai seem to have a higher regard to the Wado Ryu Renmei Dan grades than WIKF. Any reason why this is?

Sorry. No idea. I can speculate but I really don't know. I do know that there are certain restrictions placed upon Wadoryu people rejoining the Wadokai but that has to do with stuff that is spelled out in the out of court settlement. Things like when Wadoryu people return to the Wadokai they cannot immediately become dan examiners until a certain time period goes by..etc.