Black Belts registered in Japan

[Ichiro]

Konnichiwa watashi no tomodachi.

A thought occured to me recently (I know. I was shocked too). As the title suggests. Do all Wado Ryu Black Belts get registered in Japan? Or is it just a scam I have seen on the web to get money out of people, or an ego thing? Strange question I know. It's just that I thought that alot of people who train in a wado club throughout the UK but not a mainstream club like wadokai, renmei etc when they come to do their black belt gradings, would it technically not count? Or, knowing personally that they have put alot of hard work into attaining their dan status would be enough? I'm not referring to a 'mcdojo', but a genuine club who may be affilliated to a governing body in the uk but do their own gradings in house with help from another similar wado club In the area. ??

I would love to hear all of your comments, thoughts and feelings on this rather bizarre topic.

Arigatou

Ichiro

[Tim49]

Konnichiwa watashi no tomodachi.

A thought occured to me recently (I know. I was shocked too). As the title suggests. Do all Wado Ryu Black Belts get registered in Japan? Or is it just a scam I have seen on the web to get money out of people, or an ego thing? Strange question I know. It's just that I thought that alot of people who train in a wado club throughout the UK but not a mainstream club like wadokai, renmei etc when they come to do their black belt gradings, would it technically not count? Or, knowing personally that they have put alot of hard work into attaining their dan status would be enough? I'm not referring to a 'mcdojo', but a genuine club who may be affilliated to a governing body in the uk but do their own gradings in house with help from another similar wado club In the area. ??

I would love to hear all of your comments, thoughts and feelings on this rather bizarre topic.

Arigatou

Ichiro

Hi Ichiro.
Is it a scam? Definition “to swindle someone by trickery”. No I’m fairly sure it’s not a scam.

In part the registration in Japan or anywhere else is just a rubber stamp; it’s more of an endorsement of the particular examining panel. It has the appearance of a kind of quality control.

Of course no system is perfect and groups of whichever stripe have had their problems, from rogue elements or maybe the strings of management being too far stretched for quality control to be effective.

When you say “would it technically not count?” what do you mean? Do you mean, would their unendorsed grade not be recognised? If so, recognised by who?

As for governing bodies in the UK, what does that mean? From my experiences of the main governing bodies in the UK and my sporadic attendance at the old EKGB council meetings I fear that much of what passes for governing bodies in the UK are… (how to put this diplomatically?) confused, and offering very little in the way of quality control, hence endorsements from these types of governing bodies have dubious currency. I remember years ago the old Martial Arts Commission was ridiculed when they unwittingly permitted someone to register their dog as a Dan grade – now what does that say?

But the English position is very different from what happens in the rest of the world; national governing bodies in England have historically fouled their own nests too many times and their position and status is mired in disreputable dealings, rifts and mismanagement.

Also, ‘A lot of hard work’ on its own does not make a Dan grade. That work has to have discipline and purpose.

Tim

[Ichiro]

Konnichiwa watashi no tomodachi.

A thought occured to me recently (I know. I was shocked too). As the title suggests. Do all Wado Ryu Black Belts get registered in Japan? Or is it just a scam I have seen on the web to get money out of people, or an ego thing? Strange question I know. It's just that I thought that alot of people who train in a wado club throughout the UK but not a mainstream club like wadokai, renmei etc when they come to do their black belt gradings, would it technically not count? Or, knowing personally that they have put alot of hard work into attaining their dan status would be enough? I'm not referring to a 'mcdojo', but a genuine club who may be affilliated to a governing body in the uk but do their own gradings in house with help from another similar wado club In the area. ??

I would love to hear all of your comments, thoughts and feelings on this rather bizarre topic.

Arigatou

Ichiro

Hi Ichiro.
Is it a scam? Definition “to swindle someone by trickery”. No I’m fairly sure it’s not a scam.

In part the registration in Japan or anywhere else is just a rubber stamp; it’s more of an endorsement of the particular examining panel. It has the appearance of a kind of quality control.

Of course no system is perfect and groups of whichever stripe have had their problems, from rogue elements or maybe the strings of management being too far stretched for quality control to be effective.

When you say “would it technically not count?” what do you mean? Do you mean, would their unendorsed grade not be recognised? If so, recognised by who?

As for governing bodies in the UK, what does that mean? From my experiences of the main governing bodies in the UK and my sporadic attendance at the old EKGB council meetings I fear that much of what passes for governing bodies in the UK are… (how to put this diplomatically?) confused, and offering very little in the way of quality control, hence endorsements from these types of governing bodies have dubious currency. I remember years ago the old Martial Arts Commission was ridiculed when they unwittingly permitted someone to register their dog as a Dan grade – now what does that say?

But the English position is very different from what happens in the rest of the world; national governing bodies in England have historically fouled their own nests too many times and their position and status is mired in disreputable dealings, rifts and mismanagement.

Also, ‘A lot of hard work’ on its own does not make a Dan grade. That work has to have discipline and purpose.

Tim

When I wrote the term 'scam', I meant more of a money making process. I am asking as I don't really know or understand how the various Governing Bodies within England (EKGB) and Wales (WKGB) operate. For example, If a Wado club in England would be registered under the EKGB and a syudent of that club had a black belt, would it be down to the EKGB to have their rank recorded in Japan or would it be down to the individual club to see that this is completed?

I know the question sounds long winded and very strange. It seems that I am not very adept at putting my questions across in a simple manner. I seem to confuse things. :-(

You talk of quality control within England. What would be the best way to have quality control in England?

Also, When I wrote 'Would it technically not count', I meant, If someone is awarded a Black belt rank, but it is not recorded in Japan, would this have a negative effect on the student if they wanted to open their own dojo or attend any instructors courses later on in their life? Surely, there has to be some sort of checks in place to see if someone is a legitimate Black Belt holder before they can open any clubs and not be classed as 'A Fraud@ etc...

I have even confused myself with all of this nonsense I have written now and actually lost track with what I was originally asking.......

[Tim49]

Hi Ichiro,
To try and answer your questions:

Firstly; there is no longer an EKGB, there is the EKF and I think other rival groups (not something I spend a lot of time thinking about), but I know what you mean.

No it would not be up to any national governing body in the UK to register Dan grades in Japan; that may be up to the individual organisations. EKF has nothing to do with it. I don’t think Japan features on their radar.

Re; quality control.
It is so huge a problem that it’s almost an impossibility – more so with Wado, the water is far too muddy.

Re. your question about Dan grades not recognised in Japan:
‘Negative effect if they want to open their own Dojo’, who’s going to check? Who’s going to ask that question? There are no checks in place in the UK, never have been.

Tim

[Ichiro]

Well,

I think that that has answered my hodge podge of nonsense I have asked. I thought that there would have been certain checks in place to check someone's authenticity before they opened a dojo. In that case, anyone could learn a Karate style via book or video and claim to be a black belt and open their own dojo!

[kyudo]

I guess your question is about legitimation (being in accordance with established or accepted patterns and standards).

Fair question. But difficult to answer.

To illustrate the pitfalls of legitimation:
In the Netherlands, the most legitimate body to issue dan grades is KBN, the Dutch Karate Federation. However, outside the Netherlands, the KBN is hardly recognized as a legitimate body. Internationally, JKF-Wadokai, Wadoryu Renmei and Wadoryu Kokusai are legitimate bodies. But a JKF-Wadokai grade is not legit within KBN.

Another example:
We can assume that within the Canadian Shintani Wado Kai Federation, their own dan grades are considered legit. However, few people outside the organization will consider them legit too.

So it very much depends on your perspective.

Legitimization comes with fairness, credibility and quid pro quo. Quid pro quo means that you'll want something in return for adhering to a specific organization. It's the 'what's in it for me' factor. So, the organization that has the most to offer and is fair and credible, will have the most support and will be the most legit. Japanese organizations have an advantage, because they can offer authenticity. Or at least the perception of authenticity. They also have an edge in credibility because historically they have the most senior instructors. That makes a Japanese dan grade the most legit of all.
For the time being, at least...

So yes, anyone can claim to be a black belt and open a dojo. After all, isn't that what Ohtsuka Mejin did? But Ohtsuka had credibility (he could kick ass), authenticity (Shindo Yoshin Ryu, Tode), was a good instructor and acted fair. Ultimately, that's why he was legit. But not everyone is…

[Ichiro]

I guess your question is about legitimation (being in accordance with established or accepted patterns and standards).

Fair question. But difficult to answer.

To illustrate the pitfalls of legitimation:
In the Netherlands, the most legitimate body to issue dan grades is KBN, the Dutch Karate Federation. However, outside the Netherlands, the KBN is hardly recognized as a legitimate body. Internationally, JKF-Wadokai, Wadoryu Renmei and Wadoryu Kokusai are legitimate bodies. But a JKF-Wadokai grade is not legit within KBN.

Another example:
We can assume that within the Canadian Shintani Wado Kai Federation, their own dan grades are considered legit. However, few people outside the organization will consider them legit too.

So it very much depends on your perspective.

Legitimization comes with fairness, credibility and quid pro quo. Quid pro quo means that you'll want something in return for adhering to a specific organization. It's the 'what's in it for me' factor. So, the organization that has the most to offer and is fair and credible, will have the most support and will be the most legit. Japanese organizations have an advantage, because they can offer authenticity. Or at least the perception of authenticity. They also have an edge in credibility because historically they have the most senior instructors. That makes a Japanese dan grade the most legit of all.
For the time being, at least...

So yes, anyone can claim to be a black belt and open a dojo. After all, isn't that what Ohtsuka Mejin did? But Ohtsuka had credibility (he could kick ass), authenticity (Shindo Yoshin Ryu, Tode), was a good instructor and acted fair. Ultimately, that's why he was legit. But not everyone is…

That has answered the question upon legitimacy quite well. Thank you. How would someone get their UK Dan grade registered (or 'Rubber Stamped) with Japan if you weren't graded there etc? Is there a process? I believe that Ohtsuka Sensei was awarded his shodan by Funakoshi Sensei? Or at least that is what I heard....

[Tim49]

Ichiro,
Interesting question, but I will initially attempt to answer it with another question:
Why does it matter?

I would reckon that as long as you are as near as reasonably possible to the wellspring of Wado then your technique has a better chance of being on the right lines. I would say that if we are aspiring towards Ohtsuka Sensei’s Wado it may be useful to view his tradition as a series of concentric rings radiating out from the man himself (even though he is no longer with us). The nearer to the centre of the circles the better your chance of tapping into the essence of his vision for Wado. You say, “How would someone get their UK Dan grade registered (or 'Rubber Stamped) with Japan if you weren't graded there etc? Is there a process?” Most of the Wado high grades in the UK were not graded in Japan, not sure what you are saying here. And, “I believe that Ohtsuka Sensei was awarded his shodan by Funakoshi Sensei? Or at least that is what I heard....”. Not sure what point you are making here; are you questioning the ‘grading’ process? Please explain.


Kyudo,
I wonder about your use of the word ‘legitimisation’, what do you mean? Who measures whether something is legitimate or not? Is it the punters, is it the national sporting bodies; is it between peers (with all their inevitable biases)? Or is it some kind of amorphous general public perception?

I also don’t quite understand your quid pro quo argument; can you explain please.

Tim

[kyudo]

Kyudo,
I wonder about your use of the word ‘legitimisation’, what do you mean? Who measures whether something is legitimate or not? Is it the punters, is it the national sporting bodies; is it between peers (with all their inevitable biases)? Or is it some kind of amorphous general public perception?

I also don’t quite understand your quid pro quo argument; can you explain please.

Actually, my wife studies law. And I sometimes read her books. :-)
Legitimisation is the result of people believing in a system. You believe in the UK legal system, as do most of the UK citizens. That makes the system legit. People in Libya ceased to believe in the legitimacy of Khadaffi's rule, and he lost the power to enforce it. So the system ceased to be legit. Simple as that, really.
If everyone in the world believes Ohtsuka is legit, then he is legit. But by the same token, if everyone in the world believes Shintani is legit, then he is legit too.

So at the end of the day, the question is, do people support the system? They tend to, as long as they have reasons to believe in it. Perhaps more important, they keep supporting the system as long as get something out of it. Quid pro quo.

You support the UK legal system because it prevents the country from sliding into turmoil and anarchy. Not to mention road maintenance, scholing system, health care, etc. etc. So you get a lot out of it. My guess is that you'll keep supporting it. :-)

[kyudo]

How would someone get their UK Dan grade registered (or 'Rubber Stamped) with Japan if you weren't graded there etc? Is there a process?

That's probably different for each organization and perhaps even each case. As it happens I'm in the process of getting a Japanese 'rubber stamp' on my last dan grade, which I acquired in the Netherlands. As I passed the test in a legit JKF-Wadokai test, I shouldn't even need a rubber stamp. Unfortunately, my grade was never 'confirmed' with an official document. (Long and irrelevant story...) So now some people within the byzantine organization of JKF-Wadokai need to perform some arcane activities in order for me to obtain my 'rubber stamp'. With that rubber stamp, I will have obtained the right to get the next rubber stamp.
Also, when I have the Japanese rubber stamp, I can go back to the Dutch karate federation to obtain their rubber stamp. At least, if I wanted to....

Meanwhile, I sit back and enjoy the marvel of a world revolving around rubber stamps...