Form and function in Wado

[claas]

kyudo wrote on the thread about how Wado has changed one's life the following:

Some additional musings on how wado 'fits' into my life…

Over the years I learned that In wado everything, every movement, every position has a purpose. If a foot or hand is positioned in a certain way, it's not for looks, it's for a specific purpose.

However, in the West we lived (and still live for most part) according to the maxim: form follows function. On first glance, this sounds very wado like. But it's not. In wado form doesn't FOLLOW function, rather form IS function. In the west 'modernism' was bred on the notion of form follows function. Modern cars, towns and products look the way they do (and have their flaws) beause of that. With the grand exception of Apple products. Steve Jobs, Apple's founder, had a whole different maxim, which he probably derived from his many trips to Japan (he loved Japan and was much into zen). Jobs said: design is how it works. And fundamentally that's the difference between an iPod and an MP3 player. Between an iPhone and a mobile phone. Between Mac and Windows. Not trying to fuel a technology debate here, but doesn't the same apply to wado? The way it looks IS the way it works.

As for me, I'm obviously not Steve Jobs. But already as a kid and a young man I had serious doubts about 'form follows function'. I asked myself: shouldn't form BE function? I looked at the professional tools I used during my stint as a carpenter and furniture designer. And I asked myself: why are these tools so beautiful? No designer ever bothered to design a claw hammer. Yet, a well balanced claw hammer is a marvel of beauty. Why is that? Because its shape IS its purpose. The one doesn't follow the other. They are one. The claw hammer got shaped over the course of generations. All superfluous forms were eliminated to arrive at its beautiful essence.

Therefor, carpentry is how I got on the same track as Steve Jobs and Hironori Ohtsuka.

But it took me a while to realize that the same goes for wado. I can't say wado influenced my view on design. Rather the other way round: my look on design influenced the way I practise wado. But wado was a perfect fit. My MA journey didn't start out in wado. But I'm pretty sure that one day it will end there.

I thought this might be a good separate thread, in case anyone has further thoughts.

My thoughts differ a little, but it seems it has to do with the definition of "function", so my opinions could very well be similar. I think in Wado form follows function. My way of seeing "function" is application in real life.

The application for Wado has been for me something that happens in social situations and many more. I live in a relatively safe place so there is very little need for physical confrontation. Perhaps Wado has helped in preventing conflicts to end up physically violently. Following the kumite formality is a valuable lesson in behavior. Still it is a formality bringing up the essentials, while real application hopefully finds a more practical form suitable for the situation.

Same goes for the technical stuff. Formalization is usually made in the more traditional arts in a way that some stuff are exaggerated on purpose, while others are made small; some incidental stuff are left out because man is not stupid and it is thought to be a better idea to concentrate on the essentials. Also some formalization give a good middle path while the actual application might deviate from this. The formalization has evolved over the years so that all this becomes a better package for a way of training.


Discussing with many people in modern systems of self defence gives the impression that their systems are more concrete, while at the same time many of the newer ones also have a clever background thought. Also my impression is that some modern jujutsu schools are pretty much a huge combination of techniques. Anyway, both of these seem to be more concrete. Then for example some Chinese arts seem to be very abstract in the sense that their main focus is on developing a combative mind-body combination partially by training techniques. (Of course they too study application.) We might be somewhere in the middle, being semi-concrete.

I would like to add that the concrete-abstract differentiation in the sense that I mean does not indicate effectivity. I would guess in the lineages of the arts many times abstraction is a product of evolution and concretion a product of revolution. What is important is functionality.


The point here is that in concrete arts lots of techniques are needed while by abstraction a way of training fundamentals more effectively can be found. (The amount of techniques might still be big but there might be a better hierarchy.) In this way I don't think form is function in Wado.



A few comments about the text:
- I know at least one very abstract and probably effective modern art and would guess that on the other hand there are many very concrete Chinese arts, so I don't mean to generalize.
- I'm not sure if I can use the word "concretion" in the way I used. :)
- Putting Wado on a line that deals with the amount of abstraction is of course an oversimplification to demonstrate a point.
- I do realize this is an "Omote, ura & henka" -discussion again.



I don't mean to question your point, kyudo. I am curious if the reason for why my words seem to contradict yours has to do with how we understand "function". Because of course function can also relate to "function in training for application" instead of "function in application". Did you mean that or something else?

[Tim49]

Claas,
What interested me was your reference to ‘real life’. At one level you could say that all living is ‘real life’, so it might be helpful first define this by looking at what is not ‘real life’, in that I would include delusion and out and out fantasy. An adult male who runs around woodland at the weekend pretending to be an Orc may well be classified as escaping into a fantasy world which is far removed from everyday existence, but is he engaging in ‘real life’? At one level I would say that yes he is; because as a human being he has to follow some human reality (for example, he cannot flap his arms and fly, and what he does may involve interaction with other like-minded Orcs). So some ‘reality’ can be gleaned from these types of human activity.

For Fitness for Purpose we may well have to think of Wado as a product, although because we do not end up with an artefact or a tool or instrument; (our bodies and our minds are our instruments) this might prove to be problematic as the effectiveness of our ‘product’ is limited by the weakness in our instrument of application (ourselves).

I suppose this is where a rather useful musical analogy comes in (I always think serious musicians would understand the mindset of serious martial artists). The creations of Beethoven is somewhat constrained by the competency of the individual musician, or even his instrument.

Ohtsuka’s Wado is likewise limited by two things; the imperfection of the instrument (us, as martial artists) and the transmission of his ideas through the conduit of those designated as teachers (Sensei). Of course the serious classical musician does not necessarily suffer greatly from the second of these clauses, but I am under no illusion that, for example, the contemporary incarnations of the works of Mozart are exactly as W. A. Mozart would have intended, or that he would approve of their current embodiment.

Our ‘product’ might be put to the test, prove itself, by being matched against some criteria, but what criteria, and how might these tests be measured and quantified in an objective way? Is our ‘product’ a single purpose instrument? If it was in a truly martial/military world then the answer would probably be yes, but we as contemporary martial artists in civilian environment might find that the demands on us as human beings are quite different.

Don’t want to take up too much space on this, just kicking it off and priming the pump.

Tim

[WadoAJ]

Probably coincidence as I haven't touched "the book" in a while, but my eye fell on this:

"kata expresses the objective of its action. Hence, the best way to improve is to practice in accordance to that objective". (p.87)

[yabumi]

My opinion is that form and function cannot be completely separated, at least within the context of Wado Ryu. They are joined together in a perpetual dance, each one always leading back to the other. So that both are required in order to continue and continuing, rather than arriving, is both the reason and the meaning. With claw hammers, iPods and the like there is a tangible need or end product to design towards. Whether we are starting from zero or refining an existing product. Again, my opinion is that with Wado Ryu there is no end product, there is not even an enduring need. There is only striving.

There may be function at some point along the path: fighting skill, or perhaps mundane fitness concerns, but it will soon be replaced by form: practice for technical excellence. This in turn will be replaced by function and so on ad infinitum. When we let go the need for the dichotomy, certain benefits will result. However the benefits, whether personal or to mankind are incidental to the meaning.

I don't suppose for one minute that Ohtsuka set out in the 1920's let alone at age 4 to design a martial arts system. He merely worked with what he had available from his contemporaries, his environment and his personal experience or: at that time, in that place, knowing what he knew . He was, and we are, fortunate that he possessed the wisdom to formulate a near perfect vehicle to transfer his ideals to mankind.

[oneya]

Well, I dunno Kyudo, Claas,
perhaps it is me but in my understanding and experience the wado premise has always been clearly 'Function follows Form' from its very beginnings which is why it always starts with Kihon and its principles and develops the individual until he or she can function from there. As we know kihon and kata (or form if you will ) are fundamental but also progressive so any stasis is contributed – if that is the right word – by the practitioner.. Any talk of apparatus like claw hammers or apple computers can allow the cause of one’s stasis to be excused as something extraneous and inanimate and misses the point that the individual human's physical, spiritual and intellectual understanding of the dynamic intrinsic to Ohtsuka's wado ryu is what is actually on the workbench.
This fundamental core dynamic in which, for the most part, any apparatus is going to be adding an igata component and is therefore going to be inimical to its purpose. If we remove any and all extraneous apparatus from the wado ryu then nothing will change however. if we remove the human being from the wado ryu equation then wado ryu itself is stagnant, ergo; its purpose and function must be, as I see it: for the development, education and enlightenment of the human being. Hopefully this elevation will be to a point where they can understand violence as a first consideration to be a negative factor in one’s own education and evolution. It is wado ryu and the clue is in the title.

Yes the western world is trailing – and likely to continue for some time yet, trammeled and powered as it is by very different criteria of its: clan, tribal, national, racial, religious, creed and political lusts, or individual frailty and fears where - history notwithstanding - its purpose is often seen as more achievable if you can convince people you can point at their enemy and bring them to heel by the use of unlimited violence.

Ohtsuka meijin’s musings on the purpose of martial arts often centred around the pathway for peace so our ‘product’ [as Tim says] or perhaps its underlying aspirations towards peace might well be charted in retrospect when weighed against such expensive tournaments as the Somme, Verdun, Ypres, Arnhem, Stalingrad, Leningrad, Kursk, Normandy, Bastogne, Berlin, Burma, Guadalcanal, Midway, Iwo Jima, Okinawa and yet again and again up to today’s Iraq and Afghanistan where it is still flexing for the upcoming/ongoing greater middle eastern championships. Looking along a wado ryu time/life line with its practitioners stemming from the same nations and numbered in their thousands now in wado ryu’s current global status, these same practitioners could well be seen as being heralds for a breath of sanity in our time. This is possibly one tangible way to bring in a judgement – at least on one level – which effectively argues the wado ryu being a much more civilised method of cross cultural interchange where everyone is a winner. A judgement which may also confirm Ohtsuka meijin as a visionary on a par with Ghandi or Mandela but more than just this, Ohtsuka meijin, unlike the *suffer the other cheek now and feel better later* philosophies of the many visionaries, Ohtsuka meijin was observant enough to know that each man or woman’s contribution is vital for his or her own development and evolution so he provided each of us with a method to sharpen the instrument and pointed to the dynamic to achieve this.

Enlightenment comes dearly though and with foot dragging obstinacy in the case of the western world where we often demand tangible and profitable proof of worthiness before we look or listen to the herald’s message. One such example may be seen in American architect Frank Lloyd Wright ~ 1867 ~ 1959 who after providing many an edifice to his talent could argue that “Form and function should be one, joined in a spiritual union” whereas Ohtsuka meijin just arrives in a white suit more commonly worn by a baker and says: ”Do like this” so I can agree with Mr Wright except for the fact that wado form is a journey which must be seen as having a reciprocal duality [within the good governance of the shu ha ri.] where the kata premise leads to the pragmatic way which then always doubles back to the predicate before going around again and again in a continuum. There is little doubt that within this, our aim should be to make form and function as one but we are many miles away from this level of perfection in the west, so perhaps that is one of the purposes of our continued practice. If there are some who cannot see form first as being necessary for the more pragmatic function to follow but instead see their own form and function “already” bonded in a ‘spiritual union’ then one could be forgiven for suspecting a little over zealous polishing of some fantasy aspects Tim has already referenced.

oneya

[Gusei21]

My two cents about form and function.

I guess what I say will not differ from Rob or Reg so you can skip what I say if it bores you.
What might be of interest is what Tetsuzan Kuroda had to say on this subject. He says he 'discovered' the secrets of movement via the form (kata).
By just doing the kata again and again he was able to discover the function.
His family style kept true to the original Yagyu kata unlike the current Yagyu system. I assume the Yagyu system changed the kata over several generations because like most styles are influenced by function. Sometimes we discover a function and that inevitably ends up changing the way we do the kata and over generations the kata starts to evolve. But the Kuroda family never altered the kata and Kuroda credits his discoveries due to the fact that his family never altered the original kata. He felt that certain 'obscure movements' that were eliminated by others were unfortunately eliminated due to a lack of true understanding and had his family also altered the kata Kuroda himself would have never discovered the 'key' to some of his incredible movements. His logic is this: If I want to be able to use the sword like the sword legends ( Yagyu Sekishusai) then I need to do exactly what they did because they did it that way for a reason.

In the beginning you don't worry about function. You just do the form. As you get better you get into that state Rob talks about where there is this interplay between form and function where at times you (at least I) can't tell where one ends and the other begins.
But the kata is never altered otherwise the treasures buried in the kata will be lost forever. The kata (form) is the base. The function will evolve as the practictioner evolves. But the form remains constant. The kihon remains constant.

The other day I was having a conversation with Toby Threadgill and he was describing a certain type of kata done from a sitting position and he made the comment that this particular kata can be mined for years. In other words this one kata or these series of kata are so rich with hidden treasures that it will keep you occupied for years if you know how to utilize it.

All I do these days is Naihanchi, Seishan and Chinto. That is pretty much it. I don't think I have practiced another kata for several months. And every day i am making new discoveries in terms of body movement and other stuff. I know how I want to do it..at least how I want to do it today - since how I see things change from time to tome - but I just can't seem to get there no matter how much I work at it. The movement isn't strong enough, not fast enough, not utilizing the body the way I want, etc. It is my perpetual nightmare.

[kyudo]

Thanks, Claas, for turning this into a thread.

Some observations on 'form follows function':

The architect Louis Sullivan is generally credited with the line, when he wrote:

Whether it be the sweeping eagle in his flight or the open apple blossom the toiling work horse, the blithe swan, the branching oak, the winding stream at its base, the drifting clouds, over all the coursing sun, form ever follows function, and this is the law. Where function does not change form does not change. The granite rocks, the ever brooding hills, remain for ages; the lightning lives, comes into shape, and dies in a twinkling.

This contradicts natural evolution, which offers plenty of examples where function followed a random mutant form. So, in natural evolution the distinction between form and function is actually very hard to make.

Frank Lloyd Wright, by the way, was Sullivan's assistent. And the full quote that Oneya refers to is:

Form follows function - that has been misunderstood. Form and function should be one, joined in a spiritual union.

To return to my initial example of the iPhone, I'd also like to observe that the iPhone is in fact a device with no fixed function. It's function is determined by the apps that are loaded onto it. And currently there are more than half a million apps available. Though I haven't spotted a wado app yet. Each app adds a bit of form to the device, displayed on its surface. It is this unprecedented adaptability in form and function that set the device apart. And it showed the brilliance of Steve Jobs to not invent another phone, but to offer a canvas for unlimited form and function offered by others.

Back to wado. As form and function are so much intertwined I would say that if something works well, it probably looks well too. And vv, looking well means working well. Obviously this is not always the case, and it is in the eye of the beholder anyway. But still, when I see an ugly movement I always think it could be improved, if only by making it more beautiful. And by doing so, chances are that it will function better too.

Finally, these well worded phrases by Yabumi appeal to me:

My opinion is that form and function cannot be completely separated, at least within the context of Wado Ryu. They are joined together in a perpetual dance, each one always leading back to the other. So that both are required in order to continue and continuing, rather than arriving, is both the reason and the meaning.

[claas]

Hi,

I changed a few very interesting PM:s with Tim about the subject and at the same time the thread has evolved.


This seems to be a matter of point of view. The forms are made based on function, but to learn the function correctly you have to follow the form. So both statements seem true from their own point of view. Then you could say form is function.

Gusei made a good point about jumping directly to function. It really has it's hazards, since later the form will also change to match the new function which probably was a wrong one in the first place. The implied function might always be at least a little wrong but hopefully always less and less.

I believe in the existence of layers of form, so that there is always a deeper form. Eventually systems only take one to some level of depth explicitely and the rest is up to training and finding what others may have found. I believe in any system really deep the deepest forms start to vary from performer to performer. So the systems are something in between of an unlimited study of fundamentals and an unlimited study of applications and they should perhaps be viewed this way?

The interesting question is how deep the system is and which applications still hold true to the system? I believe this question is something one can never answer but should constantly think about.

[oneya]

Thanks, Claas, for turning this into a thread.

Some observations on 'form follows function':

The architect Louis Sullivan is generally credited with the line, when he wrote:

Whether it be the sweeping eagle in his flight or the open apple blossom the toiling work horse, the blithe swan, the branching oak, the winding stream at its base, the drifting clouds, over all the coursing sun, form ever follows function, and this is the law. Where function does not change form does not change. The granite rocks, the ever brooding hills, remain for ages; the lightning lives, comes into shape, and dies in a twinkling.

This contradicts natural evolution, which offers plenty of examples where function followed a random mutant form. So, in natural evolution the distinction between form and function is actually very hard to make.

Frank Lloyd Wright, by the way, was Sullivan's assistent. And the full quote that Oneya refers to is:

Form follows function - that has been misunderstood. Form and function should be one, joined in a spiritual union.

Ah I see what you are saying Kyudo but my feeling is architecture is a red herring when it comes to evolution, wado ryu and the human being. In the practice of wado ryu, we are obviously living human examples of natural evolution striving – as Rob points out - to understand and follow these laws of this evolutionary process. It is in this, where function follows form in the initial stages of learning or teaching human beings to be more than the sum of their parts by stripping away excess. Wado ryu is dealing in simplicity while architecture is quite often imposing the ugliness of unrelenting blocks of concrete on to natural beauty.

If we look at what some say is Frank Lloyd Wrights masterpiece "Falling Water"
[ http://bit.ly/S7mni ] we can see and have no doubt that the concrete and glass is igata while everything else in the picture, the flowing water, natural contours, vegetation and trees that gives it its life. In my opinion it is a graphic illustration of both ends of the kata/igata spectrum that Ohtsuka meijin uses to describe his notion of living or dead in regard to wado ryu kata and kihon. For its own reasons architects and society will often attempt to convince us otherwise but I do not believe concrete and glass will enhance natural form.

The difficulty that comes with wado ryu is it requires changes to come from within. It is not something we do but more something we attempt to return to and this often means we have to give up external trappings or learned toxic beliefs and behaviour and travel lighter. Wado ryu kata and kihon is meant to be a dynamic living experience where its function will no doubt change the more we understand. One aim of wado ryu form is to reproduce its inherent expression of natural movement so its form must come first in its teaching and learning. Another aspect of wado ryu kata is actually to obscure its function which enables the practitioner to really concentrate on its form in a more conducive state of mind.

oneya

[T. Kimura]

I honestly don't think function even exists. Form is the being of karate. At the very least form and function are the same but I think form subsumes everything. To say form and function are the same is really too simplistic. My teacher used to talk about form and feeling, but even that makes no sense, really. There is only form but even form yields to execution. Form is everything which is why I like the kanji we use for kata.