Ouch! Accidents in the dojo

[Wado heretic]

The only experiance that's made me think on this matter has been when someone struck me properly under the arm during kihon kumite four. It left my arm numb as they struck right under the arm pit. Being used to body blows and even to taps to the head I am usually quite happy to let contact go. Yet, that did some what annoy me as it is the location of the axillary vein and ofcourse nerves. Struck hard enough it can be quite painful.

I don't mind some level of contact and the people I train with usually don't. More often than not it's expected as we are all human, but we also have to be able to share a mutual trust that we aren't going to injure each other as we all have somewhere to be after training. To me it's not the pain that bothers me, but when it's a serious enough incident that the trust can be damaged. If you start to lose faith in your training partners that's really the final line to your having to leave.

On the topic of contact; what level do people feel is suitable for sparring with in Wado Ryu?

I ask as when I have participated in Kyokushin style knockdown style, there is little thought put into range. Yet, with medium contact there is great thought put into proper range and it feels more useful for the practice of the principles of Wado Ryu.

[kyudo]

what level do people feel is suitable for sparring with in Wado Ryu?

Perhaps the question should be: what type of sparring is suitable for a certain level?
My 7 year old white belts already spar. But surely not in the same way as my seniors.

[Tim49]

The only experiance that's made me think on this matter has been when someone struck me properly under the arm during kihon kumite four. It left my arm numb as they struck right under the arm pit. Being used to body blows and even to taps to the head I am usually quite happy to let contact go. Yet, that did some what annoy me as it is the location of the axillary vein and ofcourse nerves. Struck hard enough it can be quite painful.

I thought about mentioning this in my first post on this subject, but as I only got the story third hand and from a source I would not call reliable I will label it as hearsay. But I was told that putting the strike in with zero control in Kihon Gumite No4 once left a person paralysed. But like I say, I can’t verify the story. But true or not that ‘tale’ runs through my head every time I approach Kihon Gumite No4.

Does anyone UK based have any information to verify this tale? Or is it just an urban myth. I’m cautious on this one because it could turn into another ‘Freddie Starr ate my hamster’.

Tim

[Wado heretic]

@Tim49: I would have no doubt that someone has recieved an injury that has left them paralysed. However, a quick search on Google and asking around my local karate circle leads me to reckon it's likely hearsay when it comes to that particular tale. Yet, I am sure done without control that the area struck would lead to severe harm. Rupturing the vein or damaging the nerves with a powerful enough strike would leave someone seriously hurt.

@Kyudo: That would be the other question to ask. What variations in rules do you use? We tend to vary between sundome to irikumi Ju/Go.

[majin29]

This might be better left to a separate thread but I'm actually amazed at the number of techniques or exercises that result in a junzuki or gyakazuki to the floating ribs. These might not be "kill shots" per se but because of the area that they occupy on the human anatomy, it's evident that these strikes are meant (in full application) to break them thus puncturing a lung or even the liver or spleen. This is serious stuff. The upper cut that I slipped on was not delivered with more than 10% of my capability (thankfully) and it still left my sensei a tad stunned and uncomfortable for a few minutes. It really underlined the martial aspect of Wado to me, unlike my experiences with Goju where I felt it to be largely theoretical in its application, I don't say this with a sense of bravado but more in a grave tone. My former dojo kept espousing how "deadly" we were becoming but (perhaps luckily) none of the adult students had enough technique to hurt an angry smurf. In the short time I've studied Wado, I've already learned 10 times more as far as effective defence and counter attacks. Like I said, I find it fascinating from an aesthetic point of view but also a little scary when incidents like what I experienced last week occur. Control, respect and concentration are paramount here.

To my instructors' credit, they purport a very peaceful, evolved mindset in the school. There is no bravado nonsense. They foster more the aesthetic and technical aspects of Wado and underplay the severity of what these techniques can do if applied full out...

I must reiterate that of all the forms of MA I've done in the 30 years I've trained, I find this one to be the most fascinating but also the most devastating.

[kyudo]

@Kyudo: That would be the other question to ask. What variations in rules do you use? We tend to vary between sundome to irikumi Ju/Go.

Actually, the rules are different every day. :-)
Most of my trainings revolve around a certain theme, such as taisabaki, geri, KK, combinations, or whatever. I always try to start practicing in kihon mode, building up to increasingly free movements, depending on what we're work on. The most free 'mode' comes down to sparring. So then everyone starts playing with the theme of the day and peppers it with his own inspiration.
But we do have a few hard and a few soft rules in place. The hard rules are:
• The aim is to learn, not to kick eachother's butt.
• Emergency break: when someone says 'stop', sparring stops. Don't continue until until after consulting with sensei.
• Sparring starts and ends with a command. No sparring before or after.
The soft rules are:
• Don't hit hard.
• Only hit between the belt and the shoulders.
• Always try to go full power, but vary the speed to accomodate the level of your partner.

We won't win any competition this way. But it works for us....

[WadoAJ]

@Kyudo: That would be the other question to ask. What variations in rules do you use? We tend to vary between sundome to irikumi Ju/Go.

Actually, the rules are different every day. :-)
Most of my trainings revolve around a certain theme, such as taisabaki, geri, KK, combinations, or whatever. I always try to start practicing in kihon mode, building up to increasingly free movements, depending on what we're work on. The most free 'mode' comes down to sparring. So then everyone starts playing with the theme of the day and peppers it with his own inspiration.
But we do have a few hard and a few soft rules in place. The hard rules are:
• The aim is to learn, not to kick eachother's butt.
• Emergency break: when someone says 'stop', sparring stops. Don't continue until until after consulting with sensei.
• Sparring starts and ends with a command. No sparring before or after.
The soft rules are:
• Don't hit hard.
• Only hit between the belt and the shoulders.
• Always try to go full power, but vary the speed to accomodate the level of your partner.

We won't win any competition this way. But it works for us....

Hi Kyudo,

If I'm reading this correctly, you are not doing competition? Then why don't you allow gedan attacks? (perhaps apart from ashibarai)

AJ

[kyudo]

If I'm reading this correctly, you are not doing competition? Then why don't you allow gedan attacks? (perhaps apart from ashibarai)

The 'only hit between the belt and the shoulders' rule is a soft one. I break it regularly myself. So it's more a policy than a rule, to be honest. For the kids I don't allow it. Period. But with older and more seasoned karateka I tend to allow gedan and jodan, so long as it happens in a controlled way. Jodan only slightly touching with the fingers, never a hard hit.

BTW. The New York Times currently runs an interesting series of articles on Derek Boogaard an 'enforcer' in Canadian ice hockey, who died last may.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/sport ... brawl.html
It's a chilling account of extremely violent sports. If you think we are tough, try ice hockey.

He would fight and his knuckles would be pushed back into the wrist. And then he’d have to have it manipulated and have his knuckles put back in place. His hands were a mess.

[WadoAJ]

Hi Kyudo,

thanks for the quick reply.
Why do you allow low kicks for 'seasoned' karateka and not the children and adults if you are not limited to a competition format?

AJ

[kyudo]

Why do you allow low kicks for 'seasoned' karateka and not the children and adults

Because inexperienced karateka and kids have less control. So they have to stick to the 'between belt and shoulders' rule. We're not into ice hockey. So I try to avoid damaged knees and broken noses, not to mention the groin....