shukokai punch training

[go rin no sho]

Hi

Some time ago, ( in the eighties ) I trained shukokai karate for a couple of years.
It was before i was introduced to wado. I remember that they trained a lot with so called impact blocks.

Impact blocks are made of somekind of polyfoam material that is somewhat different than regular hitting bags that are widely used in karate clubs.

However, the point is not in the size or shape of the block. It is how it is used to study punch mechanics.

The block material is very dense - And the material mediates the shock VERY effectively into block holder´s body - giving both participants a great chance to study how punch feels like and how slight changes in your technique might affect the power of the punch. So I would say that it is more interactive way to train than with conventional mitts or punch bags.

The material is very sensitive to the correct distance - if you are half inch too far or too close the impact of the punch will be different. If you are little bit too close the punch will feel like a push. If you are too far the effect will be absorbed totally. For block holder it is critically important that the block should be held firmly against the chest. The punching block is just thick enough to prevent any damage but thin enough (8 inches) to mediate the shock effect.

There are of course other punching aids such as bags, boxing pads, makiwara etc. on the market. The difference is that these regular punch mitts don´t give you the same information about the shock effect in the BODY. I think most of these so called conventional training aids either absorb the shock waves too effectively (punch bags) or they are designed to be held in hands (boxing mitts). In both cases the shock wave will be missing. To my knowledge punching block developed by Shihan Sigeru Kimura aid is unique in this sense.

I would be glad to hear if you have experience of this kind of training method.

I know shukokai people hit very, very hard - perhaps this training aid has something to do with it.

http://www.campusbug.com/ezwriting/file.php?id=27320

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%ABk%C5%8Dkai

[go rin no sho]

guess this one is more descriptive topic name.....=)

[oneya]

Hi GRNS,

What might be a consideration in this case is its relationship with Newton’s 3rd law of motion and the continuous returning shock to the practitioner and Shigeru Kimura who died at 58 years of age. I knew another instructor of Shukokai, also a follower of Kimura and he died younger than that here in Australia not too long ago.

Wado punch is structured quite differently than Shukokai and it seem to have a different outcome in terms of practitioner’s longevity. Ohtsuka meijin as we all know lived until he was 90 years of age, Suzuki sensei has just left us after along battle with cancer at 83 years of age. Arakawa Toru of JFK Wadokai is 79 years young also and a few more ancients - like Setamatsu sensei for instance - are still to be found playing their various wado sandpits around the world.

I’ll take the benefits of longevity against a king hit any day.

oneya

[go rin no sho]

Hi Oneya!

I think I got your point...

Yes the idealogy is very different

[mynameisearl]

Dear Oneya,
"First time poster, long time lurker", as I believe the saying goes.
I have enjoyed reading your posts in the past, but I am a little uncomfortable with your last offering. I do not wish to appear confrontational, but I find it a tad disrespectful to suggest that practising Shukokai will reduce one's life expectancy - especially as you base your assertion on only 2 Shukokai practitioners. I'm sure there have been many lost to the wado community before their time and any suggestion that wado were to blame for their demise would offend them greatly if they were still alive. I am not familiar with the Shukokai system, but I believe that we should offer those past and present the same courtesy that we would wish to be shown.

Regards,
MNIE

[karateman7]

I have no idea about Shukokai, but if something violates the laws of nature, it's probably not good for you.

[oneya]

Dear Oneya,
"First time poster, long time lurker", as I believe the saying goes.
I have enjoyed reading your posts in the past, but I am a little uncomfortable with your last offering. I do not wish to appear confrontational, but I find it a tad disrespectful to suggest that practising Shukokai will reduce one's life expectancy - especially as you base your assertion on only 2 Shukokai practitioners. I'm sure there have been many lost to the wado community before their time and any suggestion that wado were to blame for their demise would offend them greatly if they were still alive. I am not familiar with the Shukokai system, but I believe that we should offer those past and present the same courtesy that we would wish to be shown.

Regards,
MNIE

Hi MNIE,

Don’t be uncomfortable old lurker, my intention was to open up the discussion to the benefits of nukeru in the practice of Wado ryu rather than to disrespect Shukokai. In fact the practice of Shukokai or any other hard hitting style was never mentioned only insofar as it elicits Newton’s 3rd law as a ‘consideration’ in its impact dynamic. The same can be said of any style that is only built around its technical mechanics and there are a few of those styles around. Incidentally my assertions were not based around “only two Shukokai practitioners” but more a long time study of the reciprocity factor in martial art’s striking and impact absorbsion which leads me to think that wado ryu has a more ameliorating approach derived from the nature of its principles.

As for offering a degree of respect to past and present simply because they have slipped into a dogi and shed some sweat, I don’t think I can subscribe too quickly to that generic notion when I look around the martial art sandpits in today’s world. I have to think there has to be a measure of intellect, humility and humanity in the mix somewhere if it’s going to garner any due respect.

regards
oneya

[mynameisearl]

Hi Oneya

Incidentally my assertions were not based around “only two Shukokai practitioners” but more a long time study of the reciprocity factor in martial art’s striking and impact absorbsion which leads me to think that wado ryu has a more ameliorating approach derived from the nature of its principles.
oneya

Alas I only have to work with what you wish to share. The veracity of your 'long time study' findings may well hold true, but your post requires me to assume that the methodology used for such a study has not been tainted by ones own bias and preconceptions, as you offer no further insight into your study. I would proffer the greatest risk to ones health participating in these "hard hitting" styles is posed to the one being hit, rather than the one doing the hitting. I am unaware of any boxers dying in the ring due to a punch that they have thrown. If we wish to use longevity as the measure for the efficacy of a martial art then perhaps tai chi or qigong would come up trumps?

The original poster asked whether anyone was aware or had used 'impact blocks' and suggested that such training devices may have played a useful role in those studying Shukokai to maximise the power in their strikes. I have personally not heard of such things but if they could translate to assisting in the study of wado ryu and increase the power in my strikes then I would indeed be interested to hear more discussion on this particular training tool. If you wished to "open up discussion" and discuss a tangential topic then why not start your own thread on the matter, rather than firing off a cheap shot at another style, evading the specific question at hand and shutting down the discussion that the original poster wished to have with the forum members?

As for offering a degree of respect to past and present simply because they have slipped into a dogi and shed some sweat, I don’t think I can subscribe too quickly to that generic notion when I look around the martial art sandpits in today’s world. I have to think there has to be a measure of intellect, humility and humanity in the mix somewhere if it’s going to garner any due respect.
oneya

I shall rephrase. You are not in a position to know the factors that contributed for Mr Kimura's 'heart complications', which may have nothing to do with his Shukokai legacy. Whether you have respect for the man on a personal level is up to you. You have, however, chosen to identify yourself as a representative of a major wado ryu organisation on an anonymous forum and publicly link his early demise to Shukokai. I found this to be disrespectful and decided to state my opinion on this matter.

I have no idea about Shukokai, but if something violates the laws of nature, it's probably not good for you.

Karateman: No martial art can violate the laws of nature.

Regards,
MNIE

[karateman7]

Eh, there are some who think they can...

[oneya]

Hi Oneya

Incidentally my assertions were not based around “only two Shukokai practitioners” but more a long time study of the reciprocity factor in martial art’s striking and impact absorbsion which leads me to think that wado ryu has a more ameliorating approach derived from the nature of its principles.
oneya

Alas I only have to work with what you wish to share. The veracity of your 'long time study' findings may well hold true, but your post requires me to assume that the methodology used for such a study has not been tainted by ones own bias and preconceptions, as you offer no further insight into your study. I would proffer the greatest risk to ones health participating in these "hard hitting" styles is posed to the one being hit, rather than the one doing the hitting. I am unaware of any boxers dying in the ring due to a punch that they have thrown. If we wish to use longevity as the measure for the efficacy of a martial art then perhaps tai chi or qigong would come up trumps?

The original poster asked whether anyone was aware or had used 'impact blocks' and suggested that such training devices may have played a useful role in those studying Shukokai to maximise the power in their strikes. I have personally not heard of such things but if they could translate to assisting in the study of wado ryu and increase the power in my strikes then I would indeed be interested to hear more discussion on this particular training tool. If you wished to "open up discussion" and discuss a tangential topic then why not start your own thread on the matter, rather than firing off a cheap shot at another style, evading the specific question at hand and shutting down the discussion that the original poster wished to have with the forum members?

As for offering a degree of respect to past and present simply because they have slipped into a dogi and shed some sweat, I don’t think I can subscribe too quickly to that generic notion when I look around the martial art sandpits in today’s world. I have to think there has to be a measure of intellect, humility and humanity in the mix somewhere if it’s going to garner any due respect.
oneya

I shall rephrase. You are not in a position to know the factors that contributed for Mr Kimura's 'heart complications', which may have nothing to do with his Shukokai legacy. Whether you have respect for the man on a personal level is up to you. You have, however, chosen to identify yourself as a representative of a major wado ryu organisation on an anonymous forum and publicly link his early demise to Shukokai. I found this to be disrespectful and decided to state my opinion on this matter.

I have no idea about Shukokai, but if something violates the laws of nature, it's probably not good for you.

Karateman: No martial art can violate the laws of nature.

Regards,
MNIE

Hi Earl,

This lacks clarity and wit but even worse it is boring.. I withdraw.

oneya