kuzushi waza

[WadoAJ]

i think the outisde was standard. But i have been taught both ways. However. Practised outisde so many times that it is natural for me. I guess if you turn your body (open koshi) continuously after ushirogeri your leg automatically moves to the side ending up on the outside. Well thats what happens when i do it. Dont think it really matters though als long as you control maai. It is ohyo gumite after all. I often change movement if cicumstance is like that.

Funny thing when practicing niseishi lately, that i did a jodan uke where it should be a chudan uke because my imaginary opp. Suddenly did jodanzuki!

Getting a little bit off topic. But i guess it is to wait untill the newbies take the bait.

AJ

[oneya]

Then I went back to my old notebooks where I was training with Suzuki Sensei twice a week at the Sobell Centre and also at Marvic House and I found that we'd been working on it with the knee to the outside. Maybe it's a moveable feast?

Tim

I realise that I am telling you what you already know Tim, but on the off chance that other readers do not know: Ohyo Gumite is not kata therefore it is very much a movable feast..

Knee inside or outside is very much according to the moment and circumstance and is -- except for the foolishness of putting one's self in danger -- very much dependent on the moment. I stress this because there is always a tendency to fall into habitual behaviour when learning and teaching.

oneya

http://www.sannoya.com

[yabumi]

Ohyo No 8 always seemed like the orphan child at the end of the series to me. Often misunderstood and little practised when compared with Nos 1-7, and yet it offered training in kuzushi before we even knew that there was a word for it. As I recall, it was always taught with the knee inside. Although disrupting the opponent's balance was part of the instruction, there was more empahsis on covering the opponent's guard and disabling any counter attack.

Just to confirm my memory I checked Suzuki's 'black bible' which shows the knee inside.

Think I'll put No 8 on this weeks menu.

[claas]

Hi,

Most of the times I end up "on the outside" in Ohyo Kumite 8. Most of the times I then put pressure with the knee from the outside, also rotating my foot in the direction of the pressure and not just the knee. When at the same time using my right arm for controlling the opponent from his inside, his balance gets broken if everything goes like in the movies instead of me kicking the neighbor pair with ushirogeri and punching the air while stumbling. :)

[oneya]

Ohyo No 8 always seemed like the orphan child at the end of the series to me. Often misunderstood and little practised when compared with Nos 1-7, and yet it offered training in kuzushi before we even knew that there was a word for it. As I recall, it was always taught with the knee inside. Although disrupting the opponent's balance was part of the instruction, there was more empahsis on covering the opponent's guard and disabling any counter attack.

Just to confirm my memory I checked Suzuki's 'black bible' which shows the knee inside.

Think I'll put No 8 on this weeks menu.

Hi Rob,

Probably nothing that you haven't heard me groan about before but I feel what you say here: --

"..and yet it offered training in kuzushi before we even knew that there was a word for it." --

goes to the heart of the matter. Essentially as I've mentioned somewhere else, wado ryu is a practice that needs to be absorbed via the physical body through repetition and too much intellectual discussion is akin to throwing rocks in one's own path. All ohyo kumite it is a matter of 'the moment and efficacy', so t doesn't matter whether the leg is placed inside or outside as long as the intent is met, it is not something that is even relevant in the midst of an altercation.

oneya

[yabumi]

Inded Reg, as you indicate, although some discussion and analysis is useful, too much can also hinder the physical absorption. It's about putting it into practice. The name says it all, Ohyo Gumite is the application; practicing how to make the theory work. As long as there is application of the intended kuzushi theory, the delivery can depend on the moment.

[WadoAJ]

Inded Reg, as you indicate, although some discussion and analysis is useful, too much can also hinder the physical absorption. It's about putting it into practice. The name says it all, Ohyo Gumite is the application; practicing how to make the theory work. As long as there is application of the intended kuzushi theory, the delivery can depend on the moment.

the intended kuzushi theory.. I like that.
On a "lower level" extent, one of the children said something about a "trick" tonight. He asked me about more tricks or he said this or that trick I'm not sure what he said. Anyway, he is a very smart kid and I'm sure he is much more intelligent then myself and he will get there in life without a doubt. Good strong foundation from this parents etc etc so all those factors will be in his advantage. I decided to try to explain to him what "a principle" is. I told him that a trick does not work, because you need a new trick for every situation. (remember I told you he is very smart..) then I told him to assume junzuki dachi. I entered seiza and pushed him from the front and told him to resist. The same for pushing him from the back. Then I sat down in front of him again and told him to resist. I used sankaku theory and he could not believe I pushed him away so easily. Some kids actually said magic..... Anyway, I guess most of you can follow my post. I said to him that it was a matter of finding the weak spot (suki) in the opponents kamae (of course I used another word). If you know how that works, sometime you push, other time it is ashibarai etc etc etc. He understood. Another kid: "do I have to memorize the word principle?" .. "no you can forget about that word" ;)

by the way, for those of the oldschool AKF, this is the same kid that came up with the feint move explanation at pinan sandan hiji uke (explaining why keeping the third tettsui uchi stretched instead of hikite: fool him twice, then instead of hikite step and punch. I called that brilliant at the time. Actually, I guess I openend a topic named brilliant children that time. looked it up it is here: http://www.all-karate.com/forums/index. ... l=children )

I kind of lost track due to my current status on saturday evening so I will leave it here....

AJ

edit: seeing my first sentence after posting.. the intended theory and its application. I guess the app is the living prinicple

[claas]

Hello everyone,

About analysis vs "just doing it", on another forum I have many times made the division that forums actually are very academic places, while the dojo is a training place. After all we can't punch the computer and we can't reason a fight to victory nor our skills to a remarkably higher level. The best we can do here is to be academic while having another "real" life at the dojo. This is not "real life" in that way, but forums are good for what they are good for.

[WadoAJ]

Hello everyone,

About analysis vs "just doing it", on another forum I have many times made the division that forums actually are very academic places, while the dojo is a training place. After all we can't punch the computer and we can't reason a fight to victory nor our skills to a remarkably higher level. The best we can do here is to be academic while having another "real" life at the dojo. This is not "real life" in that way, but forums are good for what they are good for.

Hi Claas,

I think you are talking about keiko and renshu that both embody learning but in a different way. Doing justice would be to open a new topic on the matter:).

AJ

[claas]

Hi AJ,

Actually I don't talk about keiko vs renshu. I'm simply saying that we need some tools for the analysis, which is the only thing that we can do here. We use some words we have learned for some experience with an odor of sweat that we might share.

Sorry for the OT. The topic of kuzushi is so interesting that I hope this doesn't interrupt it too much.