Sente & Me-oto-de

[shep]

As has been stated elsewhere on the forum Wado, being Japanese is based on Sente which makes it a different mindset to Okinawan based systems. However I was doing my usual web surfing and found this on the Motobu Ryu website.

http://motobu-ryu.org/sayings.aspx

I was wondering if Choki Motobu preferred the Japanese approach over the Okinawan



Also on the site is the Motobu Ryu principle of me-oto-de

http://motobu-ryu.org/kenpowaza_en.aspx

the principle of which has striking simuilarities to Wado use of hands. Did Ohtsuka learn this from Choki Motobu or is it something he learned in his koryu days??

shep

[mezusmo]

Hi,
Karate ni sente nashi for me was never meant to be taking literaly,it means to simply not go around starting fights.
this is the general consensus in the karate community...offensive mind is a human mindset in martial arts not necessarily japanese okinawan chinese etc...it all depends how a person aproaches their art.

Mezusmo

[WadoAJ]

Hi Shep,

I have seen Okinawan demonstrations that show jodan uke in a similar fashion as we would explain the use, i.e. tsuki uke.

AJ

[shep]

Hi AJ

Yes, tsuki uke is also described in Nishiyama's Karate book (Shotokan). Page 114

I think many of Choki Motobu's sayings relate very much to Wado - interesting stuff

shep

[oneya]

Hi,
Karate ni sente nashi for me was never meant to be taking literaly,it means to simply not go around starting fights.
this is the general consensus in the karate community...offensive mind is a human mindset in martial arts not necessarily japanese okinawan chinese etc...it all depends how a person aproaches their art.

Mezusmo

Hi,

While 'not going around starting fights' is highly commendable Mezusmo I think we need to dig deeper than 'general consensus' in the study of wado ryu motivation and deeper than the present day 'karate community' to find this motivation.

Much like Up and Down or Back and Front, offense and defense are paired in opposition so we cannot talk of 'offensive' without understanding defense being implicit as the other side of the coin especially in concepts like ko bo ittai.We are not talking in absolutes here but we need to look deeper. What is necessary I think is to relate this to its martial meaning and origins. Karate has its origins in Okinawa and much of karate history can only be viewed through Okinawa's political history of occupation which was always traumatic and almost extinguished all traces of karate during the conflict of world war 2. However much of Wado history - which is not just karate history - but stems from its Japanese koryu roots which has a lineage marked by centuries of internecine warfare. In the former case where offense is brought to one's shores and doors Defense becomes the imperative. In the latter, where it is strategies of conquest and political machinations that fuel martial offense as the primary motivation in Japan's history. In both cases their historical differences go a long way to shaping form and their philosophical and technical considerations. Karate ni sente nashi can't apply where seeking and holding sente is the primary motivation.

oneya

[mezusmo]

Hi,
Karate ni sente nashi for me was never meant to be taking literaly,it means to simply not go around starting fights.
this is the general consensus in the karate community...offensive mind is a human mindset in martial arts not necessarily japanese okinawan chinese etc...it all depends how a person aproaches their art.

Mezusmo

Hi,

While 'not going around starting fights' is highly commendable Mezusmo I think we need to dig deeper than 'general consensus' in the study of wado ryu motivation and deeper than the present day 'karate community' to find this motivation.

Much like Up and Down or Back and Front, offense and defense are paired in opposition so we cannot talk of 'offensive' without understanding defense being implicit as the other side of the coin especially in concepts like ko bo ittai.We are not talking in absolutes here but we need to look deeper. What is necessary I think is to relate this to its martial meaning and origins. Karate has its origins in Okinawa and much of karate history can only be viewed through Okinawa's political history of occupation which was always traumatic and almost extinguished all traces of karate during the conflict of world war 2. However much of Wado history - which is not just karate history - but stems from its Japanese koryu roots which has a lineage marked by centuries of internecine warfare. In the former case where offense is brought to one's shores and doors Defense becomes the imperative. In the latter, where it is strategies of conquest and political machinations that fuel martial offense as the primary motivation in Japan's history. In both cases their historical differences go a long way to shaping form and their philosophical and technical considerations. Karate ni sente nashi can't apply where seeking and holding sente is the primary motivation.

oneya

Hi Oneya

Thanks for the reply.thats coming at it from an interesting angle.
fair enough we our talking about wado ryu here but i will suggest on can always have offense mind primodially when training karate absent of cultural conditioning
i just dont think sente is absent from okinawin based karate.

and if one have that mindset naturally wado ryu would be a good choice

Mezusmo

[oneya]

Hi,
Karate ni sente nashi for me was never meant to be taking literaly,it means to simply not go around starting fights.
this is the general consensus in the karate community...offensive mind is a human mindset in martial arts not necessarily japanese okinawan chinese etc...it all depends how a person aproaches their art.

Mezusmo

Hi,

While 'not going around starting fights' is highly commendable Mezusmo I think we need to dig deeper than 'general consensus' in the study of wado ryu motivation and deeper than the present day 'karate community' to find this motivation.

Much like Up and Down or Back and Front, offense and defense are paired in opposition so we cannot talk of 'offensive' without understanding defense being implicit as the other side of the coin especially in concepts like ko bo ittai.We are not talking in absolutes here but we need to look deeper. What is necessary I think is to relate this to its martial meaning and origins. Karate has its origins in Okinawa and much of karate history can only be viewed through Okinawa's political history of occupation which was always traumatic and almost extinguished all traces of karate during the conflict of world war 2. However much of Wado history - which is not just karate history - but stems from its Japanese koryu roots which has a lineage marked by centuries of internecine warfare. In the former case where offense is brought to one's shores and doors Defense becomes the imperative. In the latter, where it is strategies of conquest and political machinations that fuel martial offense as the primary motivation in Japan's history. In both cases their historical differences go a long way to shaping form and their philosophical and technical considerations. Karate ni sente nashi can't apply where seeking and holding sente is the primary motivation.

oneya

Hi Oneya

Thanks for the reply.thats coming at it from an interesting angle.
fair enough we our talking about wado ryu here but i will suggest on can always have offense mind primodially when training karate absent of cultural conditioning
i just dont think sente is absent from okinawin based karate.

and if one have that mindset naturally wado ryu would be a good choice

Mezusmo

Hi Mezusmo, I am not suggesting the Japanese offensive mind is of a primordial nature but more the result of their history of warfare in their past developing and honing a warrior nature in their culture at that time in their history. It is evident in the culture of their martial arts until the 1930s and continued in the expansionism until the mid 1940s when they were forced to endure the unendurable, even so it only caused martial arts to go underground. Yes there were signs of change from bugei and bujutsu to budo along with notables like Kano and Ueshiba in the30s but the traditions and mindsets still remains in Wado ryu.

oneya

[mezusmo]

Hi Oneya

No sorry,im suggesting that one can have offensive mind primordially when approachin training,i mean when i trained karate or other arts i trained with the same offensive mind as has presented to me my teacher in wado ryu.

Thanks
Mezusmo

[oneya]

You may well be right mezusmo.

oneya