Idori

[Gusei21]

No, I wasn't there.

Those are photos from someone else's photo album. Someone from the Netherlands.

Haha..
Yes, I will vouch for Wadoka. He was not there...really!!!

[go rin no sho]

I think he meant 2010

[Gusei21]

I find this very interesting.

Gusei, I would like to explore a little further some of your observations if possible.

II wonder if you could elaborate on your comments that generally the practice of SYR has had no discernable effect on established Wado practitioners, and that benefits only manifest themselves in the areas of Idori and Tanto Dori at the exclusion of everything else.

Maybe I am misreading you but I would have assumed the opposite. Of course I have no experience of SYR so I am very much in the area of speculation and guesswork. But in the past there has been talk of holistic Principles within Wado, you seem to be suggesting that some aspects of standard Wado syllabi are perhaps one-offs or maybe even orphaned techniques, being detached from the main body of Wado, perhaps the clue to your meaning is in your reference to Wadofication, I don’t know, that is why I am curious.

Tim

Hi Tim,

I was referring to the average Wado practitioner. I don't think I said 'established Wado practitioner'. I believe you will get a lot out of SYR. So would Oneya and several others here. But you guys aren't the average Wado practictioner.
It takes a certain level of understanding to make that connection. Yes, the kihon of Otsuka Sensei was all SYR. But the average person will not see it. SYR is not the holy grail of Wado. But understanding SYR will change your Wado if and only if your Wado is mature. If you think Wado is only about kicking and punching then SYR is a waste of your time. I see SYR as the kihon that flows thru Wado and is what makes Wado a great martial art.

When I say Wadofication what I mean is Otsuka Sensei added his accent, his essence to something and made it deeper. For example Otsuka Sensei wadofied the Pinans, Kushanku Naihanchi, Seishan and Chinto. He really did not Wadofy Jion or Jitte as much as the first 9.
Idori, tanto tori he just pulled it out of his SYR pretty much unchanged. It's the same kata. There are minor details like the attack might be jodan vs chudan or whatever but as TSYR stated I am taking about kata and not kata. The meat is the same. Otsuka Sensei does it the same way. The others use strength or power. That is what makes Otsuka Sensei's techniques so beautiful. Soft, gentle, precise, utilizing that inner SYR magic.

Gary mentioned junzuki. Try incorporating the lessons from the nairiki kata into junzuki.....it leaps to a whole new level.

[Gusei21]

Hi TSYR, Gusei,

So Idori from this viewpoint would be a good theme for a seminar I guess...

It was interesting to hear this:

"My Sensei says to me all the time that we (wadokai) put our emphasis on karate. We leave the other stuff to Wadoryu. They are the ones who have to deal with Otsuka Sensei's total legacy ."

I was just curious if this a common or more general premise among the wadokai (Japan) ?

GRNS

Yes. It is this way in Japan in the Wadokai.
BUT....my Sensei incorporates many of the so called SYR principles under the hood but I know he has never taken SYR.
So what does that mean? He must have gotten the subtle stuff from somewhere... it must have been from hanging around with Otsuka Sensei.

[wadoka]

Was it gozendori you were trainining in this picture?

HI,

The first photo from Berlin shows gozendori being practiced. The second is kanegidori (shumokudori).

TSYR

TSYR

You mentioned about some changes that Ohtsuka may have made in the omote kata to make it safer and so on. Not that I have done all the idori kata to any depth myself but on seeing the shumokudori picture I would like to ask the following question.

When you roll with the opponent, whilst the left hand has gripped their lapel what do you do with their right arm? Is their palm up so arm is locked straight and roll that way or palm down as in their arm is wrapped around your neck? I have only once heard and seen those variants explained as the first is the real way to do it but for safety we do the second.

As always there are different levels for different people, but in general terms is this the sort of thing you meant and are there other examples you can quickly point?

[Tim49]

I think Shumokudori is a good example of what is being talked about here.

Here is a technique in which the dynamism gives us a lot of information. People look at the static positioning here and miss what is really happening. For me the clue is in the name (and it’s not about sound). But I see elements of the dynamic principles in this (Shumokudori) in how my Sensei teaches kumite gata and kihon gumite.

Tim

[TSYR]

TSYR

You mentioned about some changes that Ohtsuka may have made in the omote kata to make it safer and so on. Not that I have done all the idori kata to any depth myself but on seeing the shumokudori picture I would like to ask the following question.

When you roll with the opponent, whilst the left hand has gripped their lapel what do you do with their right arm? Is there palm up so arm is locked straight and roll that way or palm down as in their arm is wrapped around you neck. I have only once heard and seen those variants explained as the first is the real way to do it but for safety we do the second.

This is tough to describe in writing.

We use the archaic pronunciation for this kata, kanegidori instead of shumokudori (bell hammer) The origins of this technique are found in Akiyama Yoshin ryu/Tenjin Shinyo ryu. The description you provide is backwards. In the original omote kata, uchite attempts a headlock to counter shite. The roll is in response to the attempted headlock. During the roll an intense lapel choke is applied by the left hand. As the roll finishes you bridge your body and strike the kidney area with both knees. You then then increase the intensity of the choke and apply and elbow lock in the reverse direction using your hip as the fulcrum. Uchite either get choked out or his elbow dislocated..or both. The choke is under-appreciated unless it is applied correctly. A judo visitor in Takamura's dojo who didn't fully appreciate the choke in this kata spoiled his trousers. Applied correctly you are unconscious before the roll is in fact completed.

The Wadokai version, at least as demonstrated by my friend Hakioshi sensei is very different than the SYR version. The lapel choke is totally absent and the uchite thrown diagonally to his right front. An elbow lock/control is utilized to finish the kata.

The Wado ryu version as demonstrate by Kazutaka is closer to the SYR omote version as the lapel is grabbed with the left hand of shite and the right hand of uchite is placed around the neck of shite. What is different and apparently done for safety is the direction of the throw is lateral. In the SYR omote version the throw is directly forward into fuanteho (uchite's weak line) so uchite cannot at any point stand or resist the throw. The name of the kata refers to the potential of slamming the top of uchite's head into ground breaking his neck. By switching the directing of the throw this possibility is eliminated. The finishing control in the Wado ryu version eliminates the bi-directional control applied in SYR which is admittedly very dangerous.

As always there are different levels for different people, but in general terms is this the sort of thing you meant and are there other examples you can quickly point?

They are so numerous I could go on and on.

Consider, there are 35 Omote Idori kata in SYR, and as far as I'm aware there are 10 in Wado ryu. Generally, the ones in Wado ryu are closer to SYR than what I've seen in Wadokai and WIKF, but Wadokai really hasn't officially codified what they consider their idori. From what I've seen, the Wado versions, particularly those executed by Kazutaka represent solid Shoden level application of the principles applied in these kata. The higher level application of SYR principles are not employed.

Let me reiterate, this in not a criticism, it is just an honest observation. I have seen higher level SYR principles applied by some Wado ryu shihan, I just haven't seen them employed in the execution of the idori kata.

Regards,

TSYR

[wadoka]

Thank you for the reply. Lots of details that will take time to eek out never mind digest.

I hadn't cottoned onto the different lines of the rolls and the reasons. I just thought one was easier than the other.

[blackcat]

Consider, there are 35 Omote Idori kata in SYR, and as far as I'm aware there are 10 in Wado ryu. Generally, the ones in Wado ryu are closer to SYR than what I've seen in Wadokai and WIKF, but Wadokai really hasn't officially codified what they consider their idori. From what I've seen, the Wado versions, particularly those executed by Kazutaka represent solid Shoden level application of the principles applied in these kata. The higher level application of SYR principles are not employed.

Let me reiterate, this in not a criticism, it is just an honest observation. I have seen higher level SYR principles applied by some Wado ryu shihan, I just haven't seen them employed in the execution of the idori kata.

Regards,

TSYR

We could say the Wadokai techniques are codified in the video they made, from memory, 7 techniques and a further 10 variations of these. Generally speaking, if people are trying to follow the JKF Wadokai way, then this idori video is the tool of reference (in the absence of instruction). If people are interested, there is a new dvd from Takamasu Arakawa (young Arakawa!) which he includes a selection of idori. Hakoishi teaches the two variants of the shumokudori which are discussed here but the one presented in the 7 techniques as you say, uses the arm lock to finish rather than the choke - but that's very typical of Hakoishi sensei, as are some of the other variations he shows and likes to use.

In total I think I've seen Hakoishi sensei do about 20 or so different idori techniques. I don't recall any in which the attack is made from behind as I think there are in SYR/TSYR? If we look back at the earliest pictures of Otsuka showing idori with Funakoshi in the 1935 Karatedo Kyohan, that is an entirely different series and approach to what we see in Wado now.
That book also shows some tantodori and tachidori. The majority of these are different to the techniques we are familiar with now (or indeed, compared to the Kato - Otsuka pictures from 1938 Karatedo Taikan presentation). Perhaps he had to show the techniques in a more 'karate' way whilst he was with Funakoshi.

Its a curious matter, but Wadokai seem to have used the names for the techniques, whilst Jiro Otsuka and Tatsuo Suzuki's group seem to have adopted a numeric approach. This may be something to do with a connection with Kato Toshio who knew the names of the techniques and passed them on.

Some of these idori techniques appear in kodokan judo kata too, because of the link with TSYR. All very interesting stuff to a very small bunch of enthusiasts!

Ben

edit: this is the new dvd I mentioned http://karate-dvd.sakura.ne.jp/index.ph ... cts_id=287

[Gusei21]

We could say the Wadokai techniques are codified in the video they made, from memory, 7 techniques and a further 10 variations of these. Generally speaking, if people are trying to follow the JKF Wadokai way, then this idori video is the tool of reference (in the absence of instruction).

We could say they are codifed...and we could also say how it really happened...lol.
I love Hakoishi Sensei. Only he can get away with doing things his way. He knows many things and sometimes he just doesn not care what anyone else thinks. He is my idol!!!
Have you seen his shinken shiraha dori (sword defense) video?
Imagine that getting out and becoming the standard....It would be like when the Emperor Hirohito made the record to surrender to the Allied forces and others were trying to intercept the recording before it made it to the radio station for broadcasting...