Idori

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
Tim49
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Re: Idori

Post by Tim49 »

I find this very interesting.

Gusei, I would like to explore a little further some of your observations if possible.

I don’t have any agenda here other than pure curiosity.

I wonder if you could elaborate on your comments that generally the practice of SYR has had no discernable effect on established Wado practitioners, and that benefits only manifest themselves in the areas of Idori and Tanto Dori at the exclusion of everything else.

Maybe I am misreading you but I would have assumed the opposite. Of course I have no experience of SYR so I am very much in the area of speculation and guesswork. But in the past there has been talk of holistic Principles within Wado, you seem to be suggesting that some aspects of standard Wado syllabi are perhaps one-offs or maybe even orphaned techniques, being detached from the main body of Wado, perhaps the clue to your meaning is in your reference to Wadofication, I don’t know, that is why I am curious.

Tim
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Re: Idori

Post by TSYR »

go rin no sho wrote:Hi Gusei

"There is no difference between Wado idori and SYR idori."

So they are identical ?
Let me clarify this as the definition of the word kata causes problems when karate people are discussing kata with koryu people. In koryu (and Wado because of its koryu roots) a different kanji for is used for the word than in Okinawan karate. This is obvious to Japanese but to westerners who can't read kanji we just hear kata and think its the same. In Nihon koryu "kata" is a deeper concept than simply a set of physical movements. The kata is defined in a more comprehensive way which includes the principles driving the kata. In koryu there is an omote version and an ura version of every kata that explore these principles. Each student will then develop their own versions of these omote and ura kata. These are called henka. They must be based on the driving principles of the omote kata but include variations resulting from each students physical attributes. In koryu all these versions represent "the kata" Some people in Wado do not understand this so they see a slight difference in the outward form and say its not the same kata. This is not necessarily correct. Only the Omote has changed. Maybe they are seeing the ura version or a henka. For it to be a different kata the underlying principles must have changed.

So.....In TSYR the outward form of the kata is not always the same as Ohtsuka's Wado ryu version but the internal dynamics are the same. According to my teacher, Ohtsuka sensei modified the outward (omote) form of several SYR kata when including them in Wado ryu to make their execution safer. Some of our omote idori and tantodori kata require the uchidachi take very punishing ukemi. Since most Wado students were training on gymnasium floors and not as well versed on ukemi skills this was dangerous. Ohtsuka sensei modified the kata, creating henka, so the uchidachi could take safer ukemi. Some very dangerous shimewaza were also removed from the Wado version of our kata. Kanegidori / Shumokudori would be one such example.

When Gusei says there is no difference between the Ohtsuka's Wado Idori and SYR Idori, he's saying this because he's learned to see beneath the outward form, he's learned to see the underlying principles at work. When he sees the Wadokai, Wado ryu and WIKF versions of Idori and tantodori, the principles he's looking for are absent.

Regards,

TSYR
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claas
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Re: Idori

Post by claas »

Hi TSYR,


I am so glad to see you sharing this stuff. Same goes for Gusei, who is looking at this from another angle.


I am sorry for writing in this form with quotes and replies, that I know not all like. I chose to do this so that it becomes better visible which part I am referring to. I also tried not to take anything out of context.
TSYR wrote:"What is the place of Idori, Tandodori and Shinken Shirahadori in Wado."

In koryu jujutsu, the omote kata are repositories of principle and theory. Generally, they are not representative of practical application. Practical application is pursued in ura kata or henka waza. So, what is the place of the Idori, Tantodori and Shinken Shirahadori in Wado ryu? To my eyes Ohtsuka intended these kata to be repositories of important Wado ryu principles, otherwise why have them...Why adopt the pedagogy of utilizing Nihon koryu paired kata?
I wonder if there is anyone who could answer this question. I have questions (to all of us) for taking this discussion further..
What did Ohtsuka himself tell the meaning of these are in Wado or did he tell this at all? When did he teach these, how often and for whom? When teaching, did he emphasize the deeper stuff or just some relatively simple lesson that is enough for getting people going? Did he open up something totally different when teaching these or was it just the same stuff with a knife, sword or by kneeling?
In short, how did he use these exercises?

Playing with a thought, hypotethically for me already the stuff that could be learnt simply by making notes from videos and practicing with a pair would have opened up Wado a bit, if compared to a situation that we would not have these at all. I think it has been said many times that the main reason for us to move differently than they do in Okinawan karate is the assumption that there could be a blade involved. I think training tantodori superficially sometimes could be just enough to put this in context, although it is not enough for knowing how to fight against knives. For me superficial tantodori has opened up other Wado stuff, such as retreating safely. Of course it is already in Kihon kumite, but we get slightly different examples which also involve a knife.

So I think, without these excercises perhaps something would slowly fade away also from the other stuff in Wado. If the blade would be taken out, perhaps in a few generations the assumption of a possible blade would slowly vanish?


"So, if the people in Wado tend to do more superficial Idori (or the others) then would it be possible that the deeper stuff is not so relevant from the viewpoint of Wado?"

That seems like a good question, but to a koryu guy like me the question itself is flawed because it makes an incorrect assumption. In koryu the omote kata can contain very deep principles hidden in plain sight as ura waza. Most of the time you cannot see these dynamics at work, you can only feel them. If you ask people who have experienced TSYR kata first hand, I promise every one of them will say the same thing. They cannot figure out how the kata work when applied at an advanced level of execution. They cannot see the advanced principles at work visually, they can only feel the effect of the principle application tactilely. This pedagogy is fairly consistent throughout most koryu schools.
If you ask people who have experienced TSYR kata first hand, I promise every one of them will say the same thing.
No need to ask. ;) But I can be one of those who say it is not fake and also that one really has to feel it. At least I had to. :)


FWIW.... some very advanced Wado ryu practitioners have publicly stated that what I do does not really work, but these people have never actually felt me executing advanced TSYR technique.
This tells more about them than about your technique. How publicly? On a seminar or in written form, for example?


So...From the standpoint of being a koryu practitioner and considering that Ohtsuka was likewise a koryu practitioner, I think the deeper application of Idori, Tantodori and Shinken Shirahadori is relevant to Wado ryu. Wasn't it Ohtsuka himself that admonished his students to adopt the principle of using zero power?
I think this is very interesting to read. Would the deeper stuff still perhaps be, how would I say... deeper stuff? :) I mean that if Ohtsuka would have thought it was very relevant, would he not have taught it thoroughly?


"So is the superficial stuff higschool-stuff and the professor-stuff lost from Wado? Did Ohtsuka run out of time with his students?"

This is a fair but controversial question. I do not have an answer to this. One thing is certain, for whatever reason the advanced application of SYR principles seems to my eyes absent from todays execution of Wado ryu Idori, Tantodori and Shinken Shiraha dori. Others more experienced with Wado ryu's technical legacy can speculate on this subject and the reason for this as it is beyond my area of expertise or concern.
To sum up my approach for all these questions, I logically find two alternatives, provided that no one in Wado knows the techniques in depth:

1. Ohtsuka didn't feel these techniques needed to be known in depth in Wado context.
2. Ohtsuka didn't find the time to transfer these techniques in depth even though he would have thought they are essential also in Wado context.

What I am getting at is trying to discuss the place of these in Wado. They are not as important as many other things but how much less important are they and what is their importance?
Lasse Candé
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Gary
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Re: Idori

Post by Gary »

Junzuki?
Gary Needham
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wadoka
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Re: Idori

Post by wadoka »

go rin no sho wrote: I think he didn`t show idori there ? It would be truly interesting to train SYR idori and tantodori if they are the same
I think these fotos were from Berlin 2009. Is that the course you were referring to?

Image

Image
wadoka
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Re: Idori

Post by wadoka »

Gusei21 wrote:about the clip from http://www.natori.co.uk that Wadoka posted

Did anyone get that book? I know this guy is pushing ninjas but the guy in the video is Yoshinori Kono.
Kono and Kuroda used to be friends and exchanged ideas until they had a falling out.
Anyone good enough to sit at the same table with Kuroda is fascinating to me.
If this Anthony Cummins guy was actually able to figure out Kono then the book is definitely worth grabbing....
Kono is a theatrical showman but his stuff is real as is Ushiro Kenji but for some reason I can't take to Ushiro. Not my thing.
I don't have the book from the Ninja-Man but I have this magazine and DVD.

Image

He has cartoon images like a manga comic throughout it.

From Yoshinori Kono, to Sueyoshi Akeshi, to some of his students in Europe that also practice Wado. Another person from Portugal also gets to train with Kuroda. Oh how I would like to live in Portugal. Sun, Sea, Sand, training and sardines.
oneya
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Re: Idori

Post by oneya »

Of course Ohtsuka ran out of time. Everyone runs out of time to pass on their life’s lessons and Ohtsuka was no different except in having a really worthwhile legacy to pass on.

Taking the main plank of his philosophy into consideration though, It is hardly an act of wisdom to see it as a smorgasbord where we select that which we can throw away because we don't yet understand its value. – from my point of view - Here is a man who is smarter than the average bear in terms of war and peace, he was well aware that the principles of harmony in nature and the understanding of this dynamic within movement can work towards a deepening maturity which in turn can sublimate the less than sanguine youthful urges and perhaps aid universal development. This being less stifling and of deeper value than any circumscribed technical restrictions or the limitations of less than equal older politics that often fuel a society’s direction towards more of the same mistakes – but it needs to be ‘discovered’ so that one can own the discovery as part of one’s own myth otherwise it is often lost in the left or right of factional morass.

Over time I have found Ohtsuka’s teachings are heuristic and sequential which will gradually enlist the mind, body and spirit in a journey of discovery towards a more mindful freedom. There is ample testament that this not always so, or doesn’t always work, but there’s no doubt also that Life is a matter of constant change, so we too are constantly evolving in many aspects of Wado and life. If we are not already ‘shut down’ we can constantly experience the unknown more fully. ‘Know your enemy’ is old and sage advice, but it is not always possible to know the enemy one meets in the bathroom mirror each morning, so one should appreciate the unknowns of wado ryu - the concept. My understanding of Wado training, both keiko and renshu is if our Wado base is governed by principles and concepts, then the (our) technique will evolve as we evolve, but if we base our Wado on a series of techniques and technical data, then it becomes fixed and unalterable. I believe this is why Ohtsuka was concerned that the right kanji was used for wado kata and thinking like this means that one has a greater freedom within which we can experience wado in all its concepts. Ohtsuka was an outstanding example of budo and demonstrates the rich Japanese tradition of two-person kata practice of Kihon Gumite, Tanto dori, Idori and Shinken Shirahadori. Irrespective of the origins of each pearl these are all examples of his method which hold further aspects of essential practice and the line of philosophical thought to create wado history.

As Gary reminds us, the value of junzuki is in its use as a constant resource so often we need to return to this fundamental issue to understand the future or deeper aspects of wado like kata, Idori and Tanto dori or the wisdom of setsujin-to / katsujin-ken implicit in Shinken Shirahadori.

oneya
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go rin no sho
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Re: Idori

Post by go rin no sho »

Thanks wadoka for posting those pictures.

Was it gozendori you were trainining in this picture?

I think it was 2010 when I partcipated that seminar- (can´t find myself in the picture.)

Do you have pictures from 2010?

About portuguese food: I´ve heard that freshly grilled sardines will change your life permanently. Sherry Fino should be great with grilled sardines..

http://www.winedin.com/sardines

GRNS
J.Petrelius
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Re: Idori

Post by wadoka »

No, I wasn't there.

Those are photos from someone else's photo album. Someone from the Netherlands.
TSYR
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Re: Idori

Post by TSYR »

go rin no sho wrote: Was it gozendori you were trainining in this picture?
HI,

The first photo from Berlin shows gozendori being practiced. The second is kanegidori (shumokudori).

TSYR
Tobin E Threadgill
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