Idori

[go rin no sho]

Here's how the Takenouchi boys do it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VajqlMYC988

Gary

Ther is an interesting feature at about 0.22. He puts his tanto down onto the floor to flip it over to make the final cut.

At first I couldn´t see why he dropped the tanto...=)

[wadoka]

I don´t know how this fits in... But in the beginning of every kata we first move forward to close the distance.

The first distance (before moving forward) could be intepreted as a more correct distance for tachi attack ??

In KK we move forward with nijiriashi which is very subtle and sensitive way to move forward.

On the other hand, In Idori we control maai in a quite visible manner without intention to hide our approach...

Pretty hard to hide movement in seiza unless you can move like at 40 seconds below.

[Gusei21]

I was just wondering if someone has trained both wado idori and those similar sitting techniques of SYR ?

Some of the techniques can be imagined to be executed with sword also.

It makes me feel that some of the techniques originally ( in SYR) included sword.

Tenjin shinyo ryu has somewhat similar techniques in their syllabus..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTpeCdA ... re=related

There is no difference between Wado idori and SYR idori.
Otsuka Sensei's idori is the SYR idori.
The idori done in Wadoryu, Wadokai, WIKF is at times a watered down version of Otsuka Sensei's SYR idori.

Yeah.. and now I will get in more trouble... but I stand by what I say. If you have not studied idori with Toby Threadgill then you just don't know.
After you study it for a while you look back and the other stuff looks like it was plastered together by amateurs.

By the way, this is strictly my opinion. Toby Threadgill would never say this. But then again he never had to learn the Wado idori.
The same goes for tanto tori. Tanto tori is SYR. When I see Otsuka Sensei do it I see 100% SYR. When I see Wado people do it what I see is people trying to mimick the movements without the understanding of the inner dynamics of the art. Sword defense is another story. Otsuka Sensei's sword defense is all his. It is not from SYR.

[claas]

Hi Gusei,

Very interesting post that made me think about this..

What if all this is a matter of the point of view? Of course an important part of the discussion is what is the place of Idori, Tandodori and Shinken Shirahadori in Wado. Or in this thread just Idori.

So, if the people in Wado tend to do more superficial Idori (or the others) then would it be possible that the deeper stuff is not so relevant from the viewpoint of Wado? That from that point further we would actually be talking about Shindo Yoshinryu?

Of course the deeper stuff was there when Ohtsuka did it, but if he would have meant that people would get it, wouldn't he have taught it, if it was important enough?


Then of course I remember stated that he had said that Wado is a study in which you can always go deeper, comparing it to the school system. So is the superficial stuff higschool-stuff and the professor-stuff lost from Wado? Did Ohtsuka run out of time with his students?

[TSYR]

Hi Gusei,

Very interesting post that made me think about this..

What if all this is a matter of the point of view? Of course an important part of the discussion is what is the place of Idori, Tandodori and Shinken Shirahadori in Wado. Or in this thread just Idori.

So, if the people in Wado tend to do more superficial Idori (or the others) then would it be possible that the deeper stuff is not so relevant from the viewpoint of Wado? That from that point further we would actually be talking about Shindo Yoshinryu?

Of course the deeper stuff was there when Ohtsuka did it, but if he would have meant that people would get it, wouldn't he have taught it, if it was important enough?


Then of course I remember stated that he had said that Wado is a study in which you can always go deeper, comparing it to the school system. So is the superficial stuff higschool-stuff and the professor-stuff lost from Wado? Did Ohtsuka run out of time with his students?

Humm....

I'm going to offer opinion here with the caveat that these are simply my opinions, but being intimately familiar with the art that was the source of Wado ryu's Idori I probably do have some insights most others do not.

__________

Lets remember that Ohtsuka was first and foremost a koryu jujutsu practitioner. His kihon was koryu jujutsu, most strongly the Akiyama Yoshin ryu and the Nakamura Yoshin Koryu. His view of Okinawan karate was significantly influenced by his exposure to koryu jujutsu pedagogy and mindset. Ohtsuka's adoption of kaisetsu instead of bunkai....his dismissal of "Karate ni sente nashi", his decision to abbreviate the number of solo kata.....and much more convinces me that koryu jujutsu was foundational for his vision of the modern budo he created.

So....

"What is the place of Idori, Tandodori and Shinken Shirahadori in Wado."

In koryu jujutsu, the omote kata are repositories of principle and theory. Generally, they are not representative of practical application. Practical application is pursued in ura kata or henka waza. So, what is the place of the Idori, Tantodori and Shinken Shirahadori in Wado ryu? To my eyes Ohtsuka intended these kata to be repositories of important Wado ryu principles, otherwise why have them...Why adopt the pedagogy of utilizing Nihon koryu paired kata?

"So, if the people in Wado tend to do more superficial Idori (or the others) then would it be possible that the deeper stuff is not so relevant from the viewpoint of Wado?"

That seems like a good question, but to a koryu guy like me the question itself is flawed because it makes an incorrect assumption. In koryu the omote kata can contain very deep principles hidden in plain sight as ura waza. Most of the time you cannot see these dynamics at work, you can only feel them. If you ask people who have experienced TSYR kata first hand, I promise every one of them will say the same thing. They cannot figure out how the kata work when applied at an advanced level of execution. They cannot see the advanced principles at work visually, they can only feel the effect of the principle application tactilely. This pedagogy is fairly consistent throughout most koryu schools.

( FWIW.... some very advanced Wado ryu practitioners have publicly stated that what I do does not really work, but these people have never actually felt me executing advanced TSYR technique. I find that amusing but take such commentary as a compliment. It means they are unable to discern the ura waza I'm employing and have not felt anything like it themselves, consequently they deny that which they can''t understand. However,If you ask people advanced Wado practitioners like Robbie Smith (Wadokai 7th dan), Bob Nash (Wadokai 7th dan) Shingo Ohgami (Wadokai 8th dan) or other Wado ryu practitioners including those from WIKF and Wado ryu Renmei/Wado Academy, who've had direct hands on experience with advance TSYR technique, they will all say the same thing. Advanced TSYR techniques work impressively well and are damned difficult to figure out because they are so elusive and soft.)

So...From the standpoint of being a koryu practitioner and considering that Ohtsuka was likewise a koryu practitioner, I think the deeper application of Idori, Tantodori and Shinken Shirahadori is relevant to Wado ryu. Wasn't it Ohtsuka himself that admonished his students to adopt the principle of using zero power?

"So is the superficial stuff higschool-stuff and the professor-stuff lost from Wado? Did Ohtsuka run out of time with his students?"

This is a fair but controversial question. I do not have an answer to this. One thing is certain, for whatever reason the advanced application of SYR principles seems to my eyes absent from todays execution of Wado ryu Idori, Tantodori and Shinken Shiraha dori. Others more experienced with Wado ryu's technical legacy can speculate on this subject and the reason for this as it is beyond my area of expertise or concern.

Regards,

TSYR

[go rin no sho]

Hi Gusei

"There is no difference between Wado idori and SYR idori."

So they are identical ?

"If you have not studied idori with Toby Threadgill then you just don't know."

It is easy to believe this on the basis of what I saw and heard In Berlin two years ago.

I think Sensei Threadgill dealth with techniques/principles that clearly demonstrated the connection between SYR and some of the wado stuff.
I was amazed how effortlessly he was able to control the balance of the uke in those techniques we trained on standing positions.
One of the points was that I was using all too much muscle power. (Or it is wrongly generated) That´s one thing for sure.
I know this is only one point and there are propably much more other important principles that I don´t understand...

I think he didn`t show idori there ? It would be truly interesting to train SYR idori and tantodori if they are the same

[Gusei21]

I think the best way to put this is as follows:

The idori of Wadokai/wadoryu/wikf is good but it does not have the inner dynamics of SYR.
Otsuka Sensei's idori has the inner dynamics of SYR.

Same with tanto tori.

It is just different. If you want to begin to approach the idori and tanto tori of Otsuka Sensei then Toby Threadgill is your man because they share a common root. It's the stuff that you cannot see on the surface but SYR people have in their bodies due to their inherent principles and training methodology.

The problem is that it is impossible to see the inner dynamics of SYR unless you are guided to it and can feel it for yourself.
And once you feel it and have some level of understanding then it is much easier to see that Otsuka Sensei has it and you can see that the others don't.

This stuff is teachable. So the question is why did Otsuka Sensei not teach it. I have no idea. It is difficult but it is possible to learn.
So...

If someone made me the boss for the day then I would just send everyone to Toby Threadgill just for the idori and tanto tori bit.
Nothing else. Kihon, Kata, Kihon kumite we are fine. Our respective infrastructure has the means to teach this stuff. But idori and tanto..Otsuka Sensei did not wadoize them. All he did was do the SYR kata that was in his body. Nothing else. He never bothered to modify it and make it unique. He just opened up his SYR bag and pulled them out as is. Tachi tori is a different story. I have no idea where he got that from. I think he created those himself based upon his experience in martial arts.

I know some people might disagree with me but this is one of those things where you just have to go find out for yourself. You can't rationally counter my opinion unless you go train with Toby Threadgill. Now I am not advocating that people do that. SYR is SYR. Wado is Wado. Doing one will not necessarily help the other. I have friends in SYR who are Wado practitioners. I don't exactly see SYR helping their Wado kihon, kata or kihon kumite. And I certainly don't see Wado helping their SYR...lol. I am only staying in the idori tanto realm and nothing else.

If you want to be good in Wado you have to do Wado. Find a good teacher. They are out there. Suzuki, Otsuka, Arakawa, Takagi, Shiomitsu. If you want to do SYR there is only one person in the world. Toby Threadgill. There is a Shindo Yoshin Domonkai in Japan but they don't practice anymore. There is another Shinto Yoshin ryu group in the US but they are fake. Toby is the only one left.

My Sensei says to me all the time that we (wadokai) put our emphasis on karate. We leave the other stuff to Wadoryu. They are the ones who have to deal with Otsuka Sensei's total legacy . I have spent most of my adult life just focusing on kihon, kata and kihon kumite. That is enough for me in the Wado context. But learning SYR idori and tanto tori is fun. Yes, it is a bit schizophrenic.

[Gusei21]

about the clip from www.natori.co.uk that Wadoka posted

Did anyone get that book? I know this guy is pushing ninjas but the guy in the video is Yoshinori Kono.
Kono and Kuroda used to be friends and exchanged ideas until they had a falling out.
Anyone good enough to sit at the same table with Kuroda is fascinating to me.
If this Anthony Cummins guy was actually able to figure out Kono then the book is definitely worth grabbing....
Kono is a theatrical showman but his stuff is real as is Ushiro Kenji but for some reason I can't take to Ushiro. Not my thing.

[go rin no sho]

Hi TSYR, Gusei,

So Idori from this viewpoint would be a good theme for a seminar I guess...

It was interesting to hear this:

"My Sensei says to me all the time that we (wadokai) put our emphasis on karate. We leave the other stuff to Wadoryu. They are the ones who have to deal with Otsuka Sensei's total legacy ."

I was just curious if this a common or more general premise among the wadokai (Japan) ?

GRNS

[go rin no sho]

Hi TSYR, Gusei,

So Idori from this viewpoint would be a good theme for a seminar I guess...

It was interesting to hear this:

"My Sensei says to me all the time that we (wadokai) put our emphasis on karate. We leave the other stuff to Wadoryu. They are the ones who have to deal with Otsuka Sensei's total legacy ."

I was just curious if this a common or more general premise among the wadokai (Japan) ?

Could you open up this a bit: Why do you that think training TSYR does not improve your wado?

Do you mean that time spent doing TSYR is wasted time to improve your wado kihon?

GRNS