Kata

[karateman7]

It seems that kata, like anything else in life, takes different levels of learning.You first learn the movements, try to improve them, and then analyze them.

I've been told to envision oneself in a fight whilst practicing.

I've also seen very basic applications of the movements that doesn't seem to go with the kaisetsu (?). In Otsuka II's (otsuka sensei?) video, pinan shodan is utilized to showed a basic soto uke, uchi uke, and tatsui to block and uraken to attack or counter.

I'm guessing that this is the basic level of understanding and we need to understand this to be doing the movements correctly.

The deeper understand would be that the placement of ones weight optimizes the block and there's a certain distance.

SO my question is: When we practice solo, is envisioning the fight to make it easier for our body to understand what it's doing?

And is the more advanced understanding (utilizing the "new eyes") also utilize a different perspective. I'm nowhere near that area, I think, but I just wonder if wado, presumably being different than any other style of karate, takes on this "imagine being in a fight."

[WadoAJ]

Visualizing is the first step to live kata.
else: "to me he is just following the enbusen" as my sensei used to say

AJ

[karateman7]

Thanks for the post AJ. I hadn't realized you responded. It must have gotten lost in the mad rush of new threads.

It's interesting to think about this because there are so many styles with so many variations of kata that I found it hard to believe that, with the utilization of kaisetsu and overall difference in approaching kata in Wado, there would be such a simple interpretation like in movements in pinan nidan where it's a tatsui followed by a junzuki. Isn't the main point developing a sense of a dropping motion and entering?

I can understand that in order to perform these movements correctly you need to visualize their basic use.

So my question was one based off of a misunderstanding and perhaps ignorance.

[oneya]

.
Hi Karateman7…
I would probably have said something similar a while ago but I don’t think it is as simplistic as that any more. You are right in that there are different levels of learning and different seasons and reasons in one’s wado ryu as there is in one’s life. So there has to be a time when the rudiments of the kata would take precedence. Just like the act of walking for a child, it is the 'how to' rather than the what for in the rudiments of the process.This is the same 'how to' that are the bones of the kata structure in terms of embusen/seichusen plus the study of wado movement for one’s technique and intent in terms of omote kata - which is essentially the box it comes in. Omote kata is the part of the legacy concerned in the transmission of the Founder’s legacy and as such is or should be inviolate for the Shu Ha Ri transmission purposes. Omote kata is, as you well know, the face of the fundamental kata before we move onto one’s intent and spirit for ura kata or what is behind the face. I would say visualization of an opponent is much more necessary in the second stage where the ura will feature an opponent’s intent and action or reaction and needs to focus on this aspect also. – Wado kata already has an opponent in all other aspects of dual kata so visualization is unnecessary – but intent is the same in bunkai and or kaisetsu.

oneya

[Gusei21]

Thanks for the post AJ. I hadn't realized you responded. It must have gotten lost in the mad rush of new threads.

It's interesting to think about this because there are so many styles with so many variations of kata that I found it hard to believe that, with the utilization of kaisetsu and overall difference in approaching kata in Wado, there would be such a simple interpretation like in movements in pinan nidan where it's a tatsui followed by a junzuki. Isn't the main point developing a sense of a dropping motion and entering?

I can understand that in order to perform these movements correctly you need to visualize their basic use.

So my question was one based off of a misunderstanding and perhaps ignorance.

Karateman7,

All the visualization in the world will only take you so far.
You need what I call a dojo dummy to help you understand the technique or movement.
Tetsui (tatsui)/ - in this instance we are really talking otoshi uke using tetsui - will never be effective until you figure out how to use it.
Utilization of that technique requires an understanding of correct body structure and the ability to drop your weight into the opponent via your tetsui. Making a tetsui is easy. Doing a good otoshi uke requires correct instruction. You need to understand the difference between utilizing your quadriceps versus utilizing your hamstrings for maximum weight transfer at impact. Just that little thing has its own universe...just imagine what all the other bits in the kata might have.

If you look at kata this way then you will probably come to the same conclusion as Otsuka Sensei - that 9 katas are more than enough study for one's lifetime.

[blackcat]

It seems that kata, like anything else in life, takes different levels of learning.You first learn the movements, try to improve them, and then analyze them.

I've been told to envision oneself in a fight whilst practicing.

I've also seen very basic applications of the movements that doesn't seem to go with the kaisetsu (?). In Otsuka II's (otsuka sensei?) video, pinan shodan is utilized to showed a basic soto uke, uchi uke, and tatsui to block and uraken to attack or counter.

I'm guessing that this is the basic level of understanding and we need to understand this to be doing the movements correctly.

The deeper understand would be that the placement of ones weight optimizes the block and there's a certain distance.


SO my question is: When we practice solo, is envisioning the fight to make it easier for our body to understand what it's doing?

And is the more advanced understanding (utilizing the "new eyes") also utilize a different perspective. I'm nowhere near that area, I think, but I just wonder if wado, presumably being different than any other style of karate, takes on this "imagine being in a fight."

I think these are good questions and in some respects you've answered it as you've written your post.

If I may just pick up a point or two, you mention that you've seen some applications that don't seem to go with the kaisetsu. I think you mean by this that someone has shown a very basic interpretation of a kata movement - but then you've seen a reworking of the moves which apply the basic technique in a different way entirely?

There are clearly different levels to kata training, depends on our experience, training effort and instructor(s). At some point you have to learn the kata and its often at this stage that those very basic explanations of the move are seen. Maybe as Reg alluded to, you have to return to this point on occasions to rationise the movement as your own abilty and understanding develop. Certainly I've found that even a comment or two on how a movement should be done say in one kata, makes me go and look again at similar points in other kata. For me, that's one of the very enjoyable aspects of kata training. The added bonus for us as Wadoryu karateka is we can take inspiration from either the traditional Japanese Budo or the Okinawan karate. Take a look at this film of Shorinryu which is worthwhile in itself but also shows two approachs to kata explanation and in particular their seishan kata:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCSDoYzc ... re=related

Ben

[acer]

Take a look at this film of Shorinryu which is worthwhile in itself but also shows two approachs to kata explanation and in particular their seishan kata:

Karate type attacks,jun tsuki /gyaku tsuki,maegeri etc and then freeze....Yeah right!!!!!
I hate that kind of unpractical bunkai...Who on earth will attack you like that?Kata are designed to deal with ordinary real life attacks or no?

[blackcat]

Take a look at this film of Shorinryu which is worthwhile in itself but also shows two approachs to kata explanation and in particular their seishan kata:

Karate type attacks,jun tsuki /gyaku tsuki,maegeri etc and then freeze....Yeah right!!!!!
I hate that kind of unpractical bunkai...Who on earth will attack you like that?Kata are designed to deal with ordinary real life attacks or no?

Welcome back Acer,

I'm not too familiar with the Okinawan karate so I can't elaborate on what they are doing. It looks like a made for tv documentary of some sort, so I suspect they are showing their training in a positive light for an overseas audience - no idea if they indulge in all that 'real life attack' training you've mentioned.

Sounds like you need to have your own Kato though!

Ben

[acer]

Yeah take a look into WKF team Kata competition too...When they show the Bunkai it’s the same thing!
Attacks with jun tsuki/gyaku tsuki only,with the other hand in hikite.They perform the attack and then freeze and wait....
I mean come on people!I don’t believe that was what they had in mind with the creations of the forms...
Nobody will attack you like that...Its better to say we don’t know than teach this stupid unpractical techniques...

[oneya]

Take a look at this film of Shorinryu which is worthwhile in itself but also shows two approachs to kata explanation and in particular their seishan kata:

Karate type attacks,jun tsuki /gyaku tsuki,maegeri etc and then freeze....Yeah right!!!!!
I hate that kind of unpractical bunkai...Who on earth will attack you like that?

Kata are designed to deal with ordinary real life attacks or no?

Well no... certainly not at the level demonstrated anyway. This level is way before the 'Big Boy' stuff for hard men, it's probably more the matter of understanding the basis for application in terms of maai , movement and technique - learning to crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run - so it is hardly impractical.

If you are with Suzuki sensei you'd probably recognize this type of practice from sanbon kumite also but this type of kata bunkai practice has the added multi-directional changes to consider. It is all part of the process of martial arts - even wado ryu.

oneya