This is why wikipeidia can be a pain in the ass

[Gusei21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wad%C5%8Dkai

[wadoka]

Having fun with your North American buddies?!

[Gusei21]

Dude,

Last time I checked this was your Wado too...lol.... Wadokai, Wadoryu, WIKF, various offshoots (Tim) we all get along and we share a common backyard....and some dog is hopping the fence and crapping in it...got a shovel?

[claas]

Perhaps the page could be improved by some of the people here with knowledge of good quality sources and also info about the Shintani group? Of course since (I believe) their organisation is called Wadokai-something (?) it deserves to be found from the wikipedia as a separate page from a disambiguation page, if it is important enough from the viewpoint of wikipedia-standars. Perhaps it even isn't?

I know one style that has been in and out because of the small size of the group and limited importance and I also know one relatively big forum that went out from its country's wikipedia because of not enough references from outside the forum itself.

Being emotinal in this (and I am not accusing anyone for this) will not help, even though the organisation has no ties with the organisation that is usually referred to as Wadokai. This would be an easy thing to correct with a very good source, being the official Wadokai-site.

So the only mention of Shintani's group that deserves to be on the page about Wadokai is that it is a separate group from it. With an objective mind, it rather deserves to be mentioned as one organisation training Wado in the page for the style, instead of other mentioning in the page for Wadokai than the fact that there is no connection organisationwise.

More than a problem in the mechanism of wikipedia, the problem is that there seems to not be enough interest for a good wikipedia page among the people who could put up one. :(

[oneya]

Hi claas, the Shintani group practicing under the guise of Wado Kai is a long running dispute that already has this rebuttal notice on JFK Wadokai website which should be enough to settle the Shintani group's authenticity.

Wado-kai - [Karate World] 空手ワールド 17 Aug 2010 ... Mr. Masaru Shintani and his groups acting under the name of Wado-Kai in Canada are never affiliated with JKF Wado-Kai.

You can check it out here: http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_eng/e_index.htm%20-

This - together with a markedly low standard of karate which bears no resemblance to anything resembling Ohtsuka's legacy - should be authoritative enough but there is a level of deceit that lingers.

oneya

[wadoka]

But the way Wikipedia works I believe is anyone can update and reedit it all.

It is based on opinion and who has the time and energy to edit.

[kyudo]

The trouble about wikipedia is that anyone can use it to peddle his own twisted view of history. The advantage of wikipedia is that you can correct it. And I just did exactly that. If you check the page now, the references to Shintani will have disappeared. However, if you check the article's history, you'll find this:

06:41, 5 May 2011 Kodia (Reverted some changs according to facts. See the announcement at the bottom of this page, regarding the Shintani organisation: http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_eng/e_index.htm)

13:40, 2 March 2011 Aiwashihan (→External links) (undo)

19:21, 6 January 2011 Horrosuk (Previous edit was full of bias and omissions. Restores to previous state.)

01:50, 1 December 2010 Nafoster (Removed references to one individual in Canada who is unrelated to Wado Kai according to documentation at JKF Wado Kai HQ in Tokyo and added two links approved by JKF Wado Kai)

This first entry is mine. I undid the changes that were undone by Horrosuk that were undone by Nafoster. So we're basically back to Nafoster's version. I doubt though that it will take Horrosuk very long the undo the undone. So we may have a wikipedia war on our hands. ;-)

[claas]

Hi oneya,
Yes, and as you can see, I already mentioned the text the official webpage for Wadokai has.
I agree that there is very limited resemblance to Wado in what they do, judging by videos. Unfortunately however this should be found in some good source(s) taken up by some or many well-known authorities. Also the place for this viewpoint would be on the "Wadō-ryū"-page that covers the style itself and mentiones the different organisations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wad%C5%8D-ry%C5%AB
For the Wadokai-page the quality of a Shintani group's Wado is irrelevant, since they are not part of this Wadokai but another. Ironically if there are good documented sources for the quality of their Wado, another place besides the "Wadō-ryū"-page for the info would be on their own wikipedia-page, in case there shall ever be one. Would it be called "Wadokai Canada" or "Canadian Wadokai"...?

Can the quality of their Wado be found somewhere documented by a well-known authority?

Personally I don't think it would be a good idea to mention their quality in any way in Wikipedia. Separation from Wadokai is enough, I think.



Hi wadoka,
Like kyudo mentioned, wikis have an option where the page can be reset to any one of the contents it has ever had. I am not familiar what happens in case a ping-pong match of changing back and forth happens, but I believe the administrators are very good judges in these cases. If this would happen I'm sure the mentionings of the Shintani-group would very quickly become limited to the fact that it's a different organisation. Now we have to remember that the page is about a specific organisation and the Shintani-group is not part of it, so the info about them is de facto irrelevant on this Wadokai-page and therefore should not be there. Like I said perhaps it should be on the other page which is about the ryu, in some form, neutrally seen as worthy of existance.

Wikipedia's mechanism is one that mostly benefits the pages. But qualitywise (from the wikipedia-viewpoint) the Wadokai page is such a mess that it is no wonder that this kind of thing could happen.

[Gusei21]

Can the quality of their Wado be found somewhere documented by a well-known authority?

Dear Claas,

Rehashing Shintani is a waste of time.
He was a scam artist. A charlatan.
And his karate was horrible.
And there will always be well meaning people clueless about martial arts who will defend him.
Suzuki, Shiomitsu, the Wadokai, Jiro Otsuka, - they have all publicly commented on this man and their opinion is unanimous.
What more do you want?
You can't argue with Shintani believers....they are invested in making him into a martial god because their own identity and self worth are tied to him.
It is sad. And amusing.
I decided to find out for myself and attended his class.
My hobby is watching train wrecks.
Gyakuzuki no tsukkomi involves lifting your hind leg like a dog peeing against a tree.
But if that is all you know then that is what you are going to do.
Everyone in the class was really pleasant, warm and courteous....and that is a good thing.

I am sure the person who Shintanized wikipedia meant well. I am sure he believes that Shintani was a Wado god.
So what do you do? I know of only two choices. You either laugh or cry.
Claas - you can't make chicken salad out of chicken poop and you can't argue against anyone who thinks Shintani has any validity.
If anyone seriously thinks Shintani martial art has anything of value to offer then they ought to immediately quit their dojo and find a new teacher or just quit doing karate and go take up another hobby.

[oneya]

Hi oneya,
Yes, and as you can see, I already mentioned the text the official webpage for Wadokai has.
I agree that there is very limited resemblance to Wado in what they do, judging by videos. Unfortunately however this should be found in some good source(s) taken up by some or many well-known authorities. Also the place for this viewpoint would be on the "Wadō-ryū"-page that covers the style itself and mentiones the different organisations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wad%C5%8D-ry%C5%AB
For the Wadokai-page the quality of a Shintani group's Wado is irrelevant, since they are not part of this Wadokai but another. Ironically if there are good documented sources for the quality of their Wado, another place besides the "Wadō-ryū"-page for the info would be on their own wikipedia-page, in case there shall ever be one. Would it be called "Wadokai Canada" or "Canadian Wadokai"...?

Can the quality of their Wado be found somewhere documented by a well-known authority?

Personally I don't think it would be a good idea to mention their quality in any way in Wikipedia. Separation from Wadokai is enough, I think.

I have to differ with you claas, because the only relevance that I can see or really care about is the quality of their karate and any suggestion or notion that it is linked in any way to authentic wado ryu.

As for a good source for wado, whether ryu, Kai or kokusai this forum has some pretty well dog eared practitioners amongst its members from all three main global Wado organizations, practitioners who are extremely aware that bias is not the way to preserving the veracity and integrity in their wado ryu, so this is probably as good as it will ever get.

As for Wikipedia: the mere fact that it is wide open to bias in any editing by all and sundry makes its only fit for compost so what other well known authority do you have in mind.

oneya