Maegeri - mawashigeri

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
Gusei21
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Maegeri - mawashigeri

Post by Gusei21 »

So.....I might be totally off base here but...

Why is it that Otsuka Sensei's mawashigeri is not imitated by any of us?
The only one I know who actively copied him was Ajari.
I retract that statement. I think Shiomitsu Sensei and Suzuki Sensei also kicked like that? I am not sure. Please chime in if you know.
When I look at Shiomitsu Sensei's book it looks to me like he is kicking in a similar fashion to Otsuka Sensei which to me would mean that Suzuki Sensei did the same since Suzuki Sensei taught all those guys but that's just an assumption on my part and there should be plenty of people here that would have the answer. Shiomitsu Sensei was well known for his devastating mawashigeri.

Most people kick mawashi just like every other karate person with the hips open.
For those who do not know Otsuka Sensei's mawashigeri he never opened his hip.
The 'excuse' given by others (not him) was that he was old and not very flexible.
His upper body pretty much remained square. He did not open up the hip on the standing leg.
Older Okinawan Goju people also kick like that. I wonder if its a coincidence...

Then my main question (because I don't know the answer) is how is the ball kicked in rugby?
How is it kicked in football (soccer)?

I know how an NFL punter kicks the ball - similar to Otsuka Sensei's kick....
They never open the hip of their standing leg. The torso remains square.
If the ball in rugby and the ball in soccer is kicked the same way as American football then it gets interesting.

It is interesting because Otsuka Sensei's kick totally follows the internal spiraling model.
If you follow that model the torso pretty much has to remain square because the tanden has to rotate towards the extending leg.
The kicking leg is the upward spiral and the standing leg is the downward spiral. At least that is how I see it.
The most powerful mawashi I have personally experienced was when Dan Harden kicked me in the thigh 'lightly' and I could not walk for a month.
His kick obviously follows the internal spiral model with follows the NFL punter's outward model which follows Otsuka Sensei's outward form which follows the Okinawan Goju model....

I realize that just because it looks the same from the outside doesn't mean the same thing is being done on the inside.
But...if...some old farts were kicking that way on the outside and on the inside somewhere in China (Fuzhou) and Higaonna learned it that way and passed that on to Chojun Miyagi (founder of Goju)....and somehow Otsuka Sensei learned it from someone or figured it out since he understood the internal stuff..and...and..

So two main observations here.

1) Otsuka Sensei's kick was similar to an NFL kicker and nothing like the other karate people except older Okinawan goju.
2) Dan Harden kicks like that and destroys people.

If rugby, soccer, American football (the kicks aren't always necessarily vertical...they do kick diagonally) all have similar motions and if Otsuka Sensei has a similar kick then it becomes very interesting.

Typical karate kick - Kagawa Shotokan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76MgBFVGjiE
Bob Nash
claas
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Re: Maegeri - mawashigeri

Post by claas »

Hi Gusei,

In soccer (as far as I have seen American football) the kick is basically the same as the one by which in the NFL they score the extra point, or whatever it is called.

The difference is that in soccer when you shoot, you typically run through, so that the ball doesn't fly out of the stadium. (A control measurement, I'd say that's not for power.) Sometimes goalies however kick far by not running through. Especially if they throw the ball in front of them and kick it from the air. Perhaps this fits the model you propose the best, when it comes to soccer. And in the NFL since the ball is supposed to fly high, there might be a slight difference regarding this point to the soccer shot.

Of course in soccer there is usually more time to prepare for the kick and you first throw your leg back. And you typically run a little before too. This makes it different. Many martial arts kicking moves actually resemble the soccer pass more than the shot. At least when it comes for preparing footwork. This goes even more for sweeping.
Lasse Candé
Helsinki, Finland
omote
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Re: Maegeri - mawashigeri

Post by omote »

I have some video (Super VHS) of Shiomitsu sensei teaching mawashi geri in my dojo around '95. Coming from my background at the time, I didn't think his method could have much on it, what with the hip not rolling over at all. Then he hit me while free moving later that night. I pulled myself off the floor with a different perspective.

Many here will have a much more experience with this than I, but having come from a Korean kicking method as a kid and then learning Shiomitsu sensei's method, however briefly, I can do both, but the older I get the more the closed version becomes more "balanced" and "centered" for kumite. Aside from the internal power reasoning, could be be elements of simply less exposure to vulnerable posture and position?

On the subject, we tend not to extend mae geri the same as other Japanese systems. Same reasons?

I will see what I can find of the VHS tape.

Jay
Jay Boatright
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Gary
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Re: Maegeri - mawashigeri

Post by Gary »

You kick in the direction of the grounded foot...

If you need reach, you open the hip (by turning the toes of the grounded foot/knee away).

If you want power - and correct muscular alignment (adductor [edit] and core muscles
working as they should) - opening hips isn't too great.

Watch Muay thai fighters throw a "roundy" - they tend to pull as opposed to open.
Last edited by Gary on Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Gary Needham
Walton Wado Karate Club

清漣館双水執流英国稽古会
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wadoka
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Re: Maegeri - mawashigeri

Post by wadoka »

Are we over analysing?

I teach it as a boot into the bottom ribs. Maybe an angled maegeri, nothing more sophisticated than that.
claas
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Re: Maegeri - mawashigeri

Post by claas »

Hi,

Over analysing? :)
What else could we do in writing except analyse? And of course there is a lot to analyse in kicking too.

I don't completely share Gary's opinion about kicking in the direction of the toes in the grounded foot. And it seems MT-fighters are stressing the opening of the hip quite a lot. Just watched a few clips where their grounded foot is turned to 45 degrees to the back or even seven o'clock.

I do understand not compromising your body posture too much and as a result the grounded foot doesn't turn too much in this kicking model. However i slightly oppose the notion of the toes pointing in the same direction as the kick, because the way I see it that is only incidental sometimes, given a certain short kicking range. In a round kick the leg is in an acceleration which is sometimes directed towards the hip (!) and if the tangential speed is still increasing or force in the direction of the tangent applied, diagonally to the back.

Check out the direction of the acceleration (same as the direction of the force) in an idealised situation of uniform circular motion:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... am.svg.png
Image

If you want to add force in the direction of the kick in the collision or still accelerate (actually not that important), then the direction is slightly of. (See direction of a.)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... on.svg.png
Image

All of this is of course idealised to some degree, but I would like to have some motive for the teaching that the grounded leg is pointing to the direction of the kick (in general?). Have heard this before too and it hasn't been very convincing, except as something incidental to some situations. The pulling that MT-kickers are doing is consistent with the model of the latter picture that I am trying to explain. And I think, in what direction you want to apply force is a factor in where the toes should point. And surprisingly to the people not familiar with physics, the direction is to the back or slightly off diagonally.

(What are you doing in hammer throw? Yes, pulling.)
Lasse Candé
Helsinki, Finland
aastepper
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Re: Maegeri - mawashigeri

Post by aastepper »

Hi Gusei 21

I'm interested in anything that helps me to improve my Wado Ryu technique(s) and understanding...

I think age may be a factor but technique is more important. It is difficult for anyone to move like Ohtsuka Sensei and the one thing that really stood out (for me) from the film of Ohtsuka Sensei teaching in California was how strong and effective all his techniques appeared to be.

In my opinion Suzuki Sensei had several ways of doing mawashi geri depending on the circumstances. For basics in the dojo, he always taught that the knee should be lifted straight up and not pass the centre of the body. I would offer that his mawashigeri did change slightly over time, more towards the upper body square to the front version that you outlined. However, he would turn the supporting foot outwards more if using mawashigeri in Jiyu or Sanbon Kumite.

In my own case, (several years ago, ahem) I would lift the knee at an angle and roll the hip over just before impact, simultaneously turning the supporting foot outward. This probably made it easier to score points in shiai but at 55 it is painful, despite still having good flexibility! Therefore, I have also developed a straight on approach which is much less painful but certainly not easier.

This application is probably more effective against opponents close to you. I believe it is important (and easier) to practice it on a punch bag to fully understand the technique. There is a tendency to get into "pulling away" which I think is close to what Gary mentioned in the Muay Thai "roundy" , unless one remembers to bend the leg (snap back) after the kick.

I also remember a lot of discussion regarding the correct way to do mawashigeri after Shiomitsu Sensei appeared in an article in Fighting Arts International Magazine (I think) in the 80's and slightly after that in his book "Dynamic Kicking Method". His standing foot pointed more forward for mawashigeri jodan than I'd previously seen. This (jodan mawashigeri without opening the hips) I also find extremely difficult in the "air" but much easier on the heavy bag. In the dojo I need to hold it back a bit.

Last year I went to the Aiwakai Summer Course and watched and listened keenly to Nukina Sensei explaining the dynamics of mawashigeri jodan. It was as perfect an example as I've seen in many years but so far away from what it's possible for my body to achieve. Really good to watch though......

If you want to make a football, as used in Association Football around the world, go to where you want/intend it to go, most of the time, you need to be able to strike it in a whole range of ways using various parts of the foot. Very few of them involve standing straight on and toe-punting the ball! Even at "set pieces" (or general game play) most players have the ball placed to either side (apart from Christiano Ronaldo and a few others) good technique is crucial and it takes many years to learn. Also the only way to learn how to do it successfully is to practice for years with a ball. But there is no set way apart from what works! Using the toe part of the boot to strike a football is seen as bad technique in Association Football in most cases.

I don't really know anything about spiral energy but I'm always interested to read and find out more about it. Though questions always occur to me: do we train to develop/create spiral energy or is it already in existence to be harvested elsewhere?

I remember a long period when simply training provided many of the answers (or so I thought) now, the following story (which I first heard on the Mutabaruka Radio Show - Irie FM, Jamaica) sometimes comes to mind:

A missionary travels to a remote village and tells everyone about Jesus. He tells them, “If you do not accept Jesus, you will burn in hell for all eternity.” Before the missionary leaves, the tribal elder asks, “If we had never heard about this Jesus, would God have sent us all to hell?” The missionary replies, “No, I don’t suppose God would condemn you due to your ignorance,” to which the elder replied “Then why did you tell us about him!?”

I will continue to practice mawashigeri as much as possible and I hope to make incremental improvements over a long period of time. The discussion on this forum really helps so I look forward to hearing further comments and any help is always deeply appreciated.

Thanks
S.B.
Gary
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Re: Maegeri - mawashigeri

Post by Gary »

claas wrote:Hi,

Over analysing? :)
What else could we do in writing except analyse? And of course there is a lot to analyse in kicking too.

I don't completely share Gary's opinion about kicking in the direction of the toes in the grounded foot. And it seems MT-fighters are stressing the opening of the hip quite a lot. Just watched a few clips where their grounded foot is turned to 45 degrees to the back or even seven o'clock.

I do understand not compromising your body posture too much and as a result the grounded foot doesn't turn too much in this kicking model. However i slightly oppose the notion of the toes pointing in the same direction as the kick, because the way I see it that is only incidental sometimes, given a certain short kicking range. In a round kick the leg is in an acceleration which is sometimes directed towards the hip (!) and if the tangential speed is still increasing or force in the direction of the tangent applied, diagonally to the back.

Check out the direction of the acceleration (same as the direction of the force) in an idealised situation of uniform circular motion:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... am.svg.png
Image

If you want to add force in the direction of the kick in the collision or still accelerate (actually not that important), then the direction is slightly of. (See direction of a.)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... on.svg.png
Image

All of this is of course idealised to some degree, but I would like to have some motive for the teaching that the grounded leg is pointing to the direction of the kick (in general?). Have heard this before too and it hasn't been very convincing, except as something incidental to some situations. The pulling that MT-kickers are doing is consistent with the model of the latter picture that I am trying to explain. And I think, in what direction you want to apply force is a factor in where the toes should point. And surprisingly to the people not familiar with physics, the direction is to the back or slightly off diagonally.

(What are you doing in hammer throw? Yes, pulling.)
Hi Claas,

To clarify, by direction - I'm referring to the angle of the blow.

If you want to do one of Gordon's uppercuts to the ribs (one of my favourites btw ;) ) then if the kicking foot is travelling in a 30 deg motion - the pulling leg is best angled in the same direction.

If you want to kick on a horizontal plane - you need to turn your foot through 45 deg.

MT fighter tend to strike the legs as well (in a downward motion) to do that I would probably open to 7 o'clock as you say.

Either way, it's about the pulling and the hip alignment for ongoing opportunities.

[edit] although thinking about it, of course we don't walk with our toes pointing forward - I think there is a natural tendency to open the lead foot.
Gary Needham
Walton Wado Karate Club

清漣館双水執流英国稽古会
http://seirenkanuk.wordpress.com/
Gary
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Re: Maegeri - mawashigeri

Post by Gary »

Just on the subject of Mawashi-geri and as an aside (sorry Bob)!

Does anyone else feel that it is a bit of cuckoo?

As far as I remember, it doesn't appear in any wado solo, or paired kata!?

Gary
Gary Needham
Walton Wado Karate Club

清漣館双水執流英国稽古会
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claas
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Re: Maegeri - mawashigeri

Post by claas »

Neither do the classical karate katas have it. And it can't be seen that frequently in martial arts systems before a competition oriented scene.

Of course people have always (assuming) adjusted their maegeri-like kicks to the situation and this has probably led to the kind of mawashigeri that wadoka was explaining and similar angled kicks. So I think there has been some kind of round kicks around for a long time, but probably not that frequently. (I don't know how old the Chinese versions of round kicks are that can be seen in the training of some styles.)

So either the Muay Thai round kick and (supposedly) Gigo Funakoshi's mawashigeri were great martial arts innovations or alternatively they are products of competition activities. Or both.
Lasse Candé
Helsinki, Finland
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