Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
mezusmo
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Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Post by mezusmo »

Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RaAy3QD84g
Martin Duffy
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Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Post by shep »

Nice demo - thanks or sharing

Shep
Gary
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Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Post by Gary »

For comparison sake, I saw this recently so thought I'd share.

I don't know much about Nakamura Ha Takeda Ryu, but this Muto-dori was good to watch I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHhrH0Eymq8

Gary
Gary Needham
Walton Wado Karate Club

清漣館双水執流英国稽古会
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AG1
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Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Post by AG1 »

For comparison sake, I saw this recently so thought I'd share.
This is comparing apples with oranges Gary, as we already established in a previous thread that Tachi dori in Wado serves a different purpose. Am I missing something?
Arturo Girona
Wado Kokusai KarateDo Renmei
TSYR
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Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Post by TSYR »

Ummmm.....

Sometimes I think I need to write a lengthy essay on Ken Toriageru, and yes Arturo is correct. Wado Shinken Shirahadori is it own unique "thing". It is not part of Shindo Yoshin ryu and does not have its origins in any koryu. It was created by Ohtsuka to illustrate the principles of evasive movement and timing. It is not intended to represent practical application. If it was don't you think Ohtsuka would have included disarming the swordsman? I have heard the myth that Wado ryu Shinken Shirahadori came from Toda ryu. Well, the person making this claim never ever observed Toda ryu. I have several examples of Toda ryu demonstrations in my video library. Nope. Not Toda ryu.

As for Nakamura ha Takeda ryu? Well, its a weird system that lost technical transmission. According to people I know who were members of the school, the densho were transferred forward but the vast bulk of the technical syllabus was lost. It is basically a modern recreation. To my eyes that seems obvious in their demo. Look at the sword handling and maai. Oh my goodness. No competent swordsman would draw a sword in that manner when confronted at that range. Maybe its just a demonstration kata or something. That is often the case in koryu demonstrations as the actual kata are changed or abbreviated.

The subject of Ken Toriageru is so misunderstood and complex that writing about it is almost pointless. There is so much unseen going on in the real thing that you must be on the receiving end of it, and then you'll still be mystified when you lose your sword.

True story....I taught a seminar in Toronto several years ago. One attendee was an excellent swordman named Sakamoto from the Nito ryu kenjutsu school (Yes, Miyamoto Musashi's school). I performed a TSYR Ken Toriagru kata during the seminar and this guy scoffed because it looked like nothing but me taking the sword out of the attackers hands. He said "That might work against an untrained swordsman but not a trained one. I told him "I agree...most of the time". I then asked him to kill me with his bokken and simply took his bokken out of his hands and killed him instead. He almost had a nervous breakdown. I repeated the kata 4 times on him, with the same result each time. We're fast friends now and he keeps inviting me to Japan.

Regardless, taking a sword from a trained swordsman is beyond risky, and you better have some doggone sophisticated tricks up your sleeve to even have half a chance.
Tobin E Threadgill
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai
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mezusmo
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Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Post by mezusmo »

Gary wrote:For comparison sake, I saw this recently so thought I'd share.

I don't know much about Nakamura Ha Takeda Ryu, but this Muto-dori was good to watch I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHhrH0Eymq8

Gary

Why for comparison's sake?
Martin Duffy
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Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Post by Gary »

I see no harm in looking and comparing / contrasting.

It popped up on a FB group I am a member of and I haven't seen many displays of Muto-Dori / Tachi-dori - Wado or otherwise.

Nothing too deep.
Gary Needham
Walton Wado Karate Club

清漣館双水執流英国稽古会
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Gusei21
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Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Post by Gusei21 »

I don't think there is anything wrong with comparing and contrasting unless you are against educating yourself. Everything is a potential learning opportunity. I understand the pitfalls in this particular circumstance because the demo person is Jon Wicks and or Kazutaka Ohtsuka. Sort of a lose lose situation in that if you comment on their demo their supporters will naturally assume you have some sort of ulterior motive or hidden agenda. The safest route is to say nothing even if you think the demo is good. I assume that is why no one really responded. Both gentlemen carry a heavy burden and I don't envy either of them. The demos speak for themselves and like I said earlier about Kenji Ushiro your opinion of the demo is an indication of your level of understanding whether it be Wicks or K Ohtsuka or Takagi Sensei or Suzuki Sensei.

As for that koryu video my initial reaction was...wtf?
The reason I had this reaction is because tachi tori or in the case of Shindo Yoshin Ryu's Ken Toriageru (sword take away) the first major problem I have when practicing the kata is dealing with the initial maai. The swordsman is trying to slice and dice you with the pointy end of the sword. In order to deal with the swordsman the first order of business is to not only evade the initial cut/thrust but to also have the ability to place yourself in a position of potential advantage. That position of potential advantage is usually located just next to and to the side of the swordsman. How to get there is a major technical movement issue that you have to solve. It's sort of like a tobikomizuki Nagashizuki footwork thing. It is really hard to cover that distance! One moment you are just out of range. The next moment you are beside him controlling his body and his blade. If you have never done this before then just take my word for it that it is really hard.
So when I saw the video I noticed that the guy was in the perfect position a split second after the swordsman moved. Superman can't move that fast. Then I realized that they were cheating. The swordsman was intentionally over committing. He was going much deeper than necessary. He wasn't trying to cut the guy. He was trying to make the other guy look good. Dumb.

One time I watched Hayashi Sensei destroy his attacker in a demo because the attacker did not fully commit. Perhaps the poor guy was nervous about attacking him? I don't know. All I know is the guy got beat up in public for not attacking honestly. A martial art demo must be honest. The attacks have to be honest. The response will vary according to the school because some schools don't really want to give away their secrets or the counters are dangerous.

So next time you watch a demo ask yourself if the attacks are honest.
Bob Nash
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Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Post by oneya »

Seems to me that integrity by example is the prime requisite for public demonstrations, especially kihon kumite, kumite gata, tanto dori or Shinken Shirahadori or what is the point. Anyone attempting a public demonstration raises the ante when placing this integrity in the public gaze where he can suffer public acuity and comment. Wado ryu has always been presented as the ‘thinking person’s karate’ where the lesson is highlighted in omote kata for the thinking person. So in putting one’s self out there on display it is even more necessary to define our reasons and our terms of reference otherwise we cop the slings and arrows.

Wado ryu demonstrations are not meant to be the stuff of heroic Hollywood epics where we get to cheer the fantasy of our hero or heroine, neither is the public always the ‘thinking person’. Even within the wado world we are very partisan and, as Bob has suggested, often in these cases we have our group idols who can do no wrong so sometimes factional loyalties ensure integrity flies out of the window.

As I see it the practice of wado ryu is, in part, our attempt to raise one’s self above a world of white noise and chatter or it is a life wasted so perhaps we should define our terms a little more carefully. More importantly, it is not that we should only define our terms but in the pursuit of the wado ryu it is vital that our intent should define Ohtsuka meijin’s terms whether they be voiced, interpreted or demonstrated. While Suzuki sensei could adhere to the precepts of Shu Ha Ri when ending a tanto dori sequence with a pragmatic change to tanto toriageru, Ohtsuka meijin never faltered in his determination to teach the nature of wado ryu as a priority in his shiken shirahadori. This nature is clarified in all stages of his kumite gata, tanto dori and shiken shirahadori not only by his persistent attention to detail with irimi, maai and mikiri but also by his small token gesture of nage or atemi waza where the real lessons in the demonstration were often highlighted for cherry picking. His kata always shows him being more concerned with seeking control of ukemi’s centre and the integrity in his practice seemed to hinge on perfecting the essential message of wado ryu rather than flogging a compliant uke with the stuff of overkill.

oneya
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Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Post by TSYR »

Reg,

I could not agree with you more. Sweating the small stuff is what leaves the enlightened smiling. It is also why the budo hoi pilloi are left scratching their heads observing Ohtsuka sensei. While watching for Hollywood explosions they miss the bullet through the bullseye.
Tobin E Threadgill
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai
http://www.shinyokai.com
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