Internal Power

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Re: Internal Power

Post by Gusei21 »

wadoka wrote:When you say intent, are we talking about sen?
I can only speak about what I know at the moment and you know how things change so...
And I think this is more of a Reg question I think. He is very knowledgeable about these things from my experience.

For me, when I express intent there are physical things that occur under the covers.
If I express intent in my arms, the arms do not move but there is tissue movement under the skin to say the least.
So for example in the context of what we do in Wado, when you grab me in idori for tedori - I express intent from my arms through your arms and I am able to lift you without me doing anything right?
It looks like magic since I don't even move my arms.

In junzuki, when I stand with for example left foot forward, left hand out.
What I teach is that I tell everyone to have loose ankles and loose front knee.
Then I tell people to physically extend their left arm forward a bit.
And if they have a somewhat connected body then their center of gravity should shift slightly forwards - just enough to overcome the initial inertia so it makes stepping forward easier.
I then tell people to follow that up by bringing the back knee forward to complete the step. I remind them NOT to step forward with their feet but instead to just bring their knee forward.
I even have people practice just the initial weight (center of gravity) shift without stepping. I tell them to extend the arm in their minds.

Well. That is what I teach. What I actually do is a bit different I think. All I do is fire intent out my front arm. That's all I need to overcome my inertia.
Then my right psoas activates and brings the backleg forward. I don't bother with the knee at all.
That initial firing of intent out my arm is enough to break the inertial hold because my body is connected.
The psoas is enough to bring my back leg forward. But I can't teach this because people will get stuck on the very first step since they can't express intent at all.
Takes practice.

But intent comes in handy more when you are pushed on or when you are grabbed or when you reach out to touch.

Toby Threadgill once wrote that what he does is touch and as he touches he fires his intent into you and can feel your (fill in the blanks) and make that internal (fill in the blanks) fail.
And no, I can't even come close to doing that. Have not acquired that level of intent and sensitivity.

So in summary.
Intent is created by the mind.
Thru intent you create internal movement without necessarily having external movement or visible external movement.
Intent then leads ki.
Ki then leads movement.
Mind leads intent leads ki leads movement.

This invisible movement is what is referred to as Movement in Stillness/Stillness in Movement.
Bob Nash
oneya
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Re: Internal Power

Post by oneya »

Hi,

My understanding of 'intent' would more likely come under kiryoku 気力 or willpower Gordon, but I agree with Bob that any maundering along that musei pathway of ki might be a bridge too far for many in our polarised Wado world. For these interested (read: very determined) though I would think TSYR’s ‘Nairiki no gyo’ (which is another way of saying Naihanchi kata) would be the obvious starting place to develop the specifics of a connected Wado body, but the real trick is the wide open but connected mind also.

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
mspain
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:54 am

Re: Internal Power

Post by mspain »

oneya wrote:Hi,

My understanding of 'intent' would more likely come under kiryoku 気力 or willpower Gordon, but I agree with Bob that any maundering along that musei pathway of ki might be a bridge too far for many in our polarised Wado world. For these interested (read: very determined) though I would think TSYR’s ‘Nairiki no gyo’ (which is another way of saying Naihanchi kata) would be the obvious starting place to develop the specifics of a connected Wado body, but the real trick is the wide open but connected mind also.

oneya
Naihanchi maybe for a wider audience. I think the number of people with any idea about Nairiki no gyo is quite small.

MSPain
Mike Spain
oneya
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Re: Internal Power

Post by oneya »

Not to mean any offense Mike but for the sake of a very necessary clarification it seems: I specifically and clearly said: " Nairiki no gyo - (which is another way of saying Naihanchi kata)" not, I repeat not another way of 'doing' Naihanchi kata. They are not the same thing at all and even with Nairiki no gyo I was at pains to point out: because of what is on offer, 'Nairiki no gyo is only a starting place.

I also said: "the real trick is the wide open but connected mind also."

Oneya.
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
mspain
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:54 am

Re: Internal Power

Post by mspain »

No offense taken, Reg. I have never seen Nairiko no Gyo. What I was referring to is people having ever heard about Nairiki no gyo. I think it is a small group relative to overall numbers in Wado Ryu. I was not trying to compare the two, since, as I said, I have never seen Nairiki no gyo.

On a more personal note, have you escaped the "heat"?

Mike
Mike Spain
wadoka
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Re: Internal Power

Post by wadoka »

oneya wrote:Hi,

My understanding of 'intent' would more likely come under kiryoku 気力 or willpower Gordon...
oneya
Would that willpower come from confidence and belief, which can manifest itself into this state? We see people who are confident in themselves have a different posture when standing for example.
Gusei21
Posts: 403
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Re: Internal Power

Post by Gusei21 »

Gordon,

Read here what Sagawa says about kiryoku.
http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/arc ... d-ki-ryoku
http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/arc ... oku-part-2

Sagawa DEFINITELY had 'it'.

Here are three ways to practice intent.
1) stand in shiko dachi or naihachi dachi. Have someone come up from your side and put a hand on your shoulder from the side.
Now do your best to expand yourself. Pull yourself apart. Extend the tendons.
If you do this the right way then the person pushing lightly should feel themselves being lifted or sunk depending on where you are directing the resulting vector.
The key here is that you have to use your mind to direct your body to expand.

2) stand facing your opponent. Have them put their hand on your sternum. Now curve your spine so it starts to bow. Concave relative to your opponent.
You cannot move your feet or your body. Just your spine. Pull. Bow concave and you send the person down. Bow convex and you send them up.

3) stand junzuki left foot forward. Left hand out. Now extend your arm. Extend. Tendons extending. Tissues extending. Do it with a connected body.
You should feel a slight shift in your center of gravity.

So intent has nothing to do with self confidence or exuding self confidence.
Kiryoku on the other hand can. In the world of the yakuza kiryoku is key. Kiryoku = intimidation. You impose your will power to intimidate.
Intent is just your mind making physical movements inside your body in order to facilitate some sort of effect on your immediate environment.
Bob Nash
kato
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Location: Norway

Re: Internal Power

Post by kato »

In the south school of Taiji there is 37 different stances which is used for developing 37 different internal ”forces” (expansion force, vibration force, spiraling force, listening force, etc.). The principles: Align the body correctly, relax the muscles and mind, open the joints and activate tanden by using reverse breathing and the earth force. Each position has it´s own ”intent”.

I have noticed that many students find it much easier to activate tanden when they do exercises lying down on the floor. Maybe because it is easier to relax the muscles when lying down, or maybe it is easier to use the earth force. Often the tanden starts moving spontaniously and then activates the body´s acupuncture system.

”Ohstuka practiced for more than 40 years a daily training schedule of early morning training followed by his own style of Zen meditation which he called "Lazy meditation." This type of meditation involved lying down on one's back and placing the two hands on the tanden, concentrating on the breath and on emptying the mind. Ohtsuka Sensei said that if he missed his daily meditation, he just did not seem to have as much energy and would not be able to teach or train properly. ” (http://sa.rochester.edu/wado/article1.html)

Does anybody konw more details about the ”lazy meditation” that Ohtsuka did?
Cato Bruar
Wado International Karate-Do Federation (WIKF)
Tim49
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Re: Internal Power

Post by Tim49 »

kato wrote:”Ohstuka practiced for more than 40 years a daily training schedule of early morning training followed by his own style of Zen meditation which he called "Lazy meditation." This type of meditation involved lying down on one's back and placing the two hands on the tanden, concentrating on the breath and on emptying the mind. Ohtsuka Sensei said that if he missed his daily meditation, he just did not seem to have as much energy and would not be able to teach or train properly. ” (http://sa.rochester.edu/wado/article1.html)

Does anybody konw more details about the ”lazy meditation” that Ohtsuka did?
I don't know who wrote the article but I'd like to know if some of the embelishments to the facts presented in my article have a source.
For example I get the impression that Ohtsuka Sensei's father was a specialist within medicine but not the same field his son went into. If memory serves me correctly Ohtsuka Tokujiro specialised in Pediatrics whereas his son (Ohtsuka Hironori) was specialising in what could be described as a crossover between TCM and modern Orthopaedics.

Master Ohtsuka suggests in his article on Lazy Meditation that Zen was outside of his personal sphere. I don't think master Ohtsuka used it as any kind of spiritual practice (again reading between the lines) it may have just been a kind of holistic generalised relaxation ritual personal to him. Maybe someone could ask Ohtsuka II Sensei.

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK
Tesshu
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Re: Internal Power

Post by Tesshu »

From Wadoworld, here's Ohtsuka's article on Lazy-Zazen: http://www.wadoworld.com/articles/lazyz ... zazen.html
Michael Matthews
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