Been practicing Rohai of late...

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
T. Kimura
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Been practicing Rohai of late...

Post by T. Kimura »

Just kidding. But it has been ten days since anybody said anything. Hopefully it got someone's attention. The topic was supposed to be Rohai and Naihanchi. Actually I have been practicing Rohai a lot very recently, and become more and more convinced that Ohtsuka Sensei saw it as an extension of Naihanchi. Well, that's about it....
Last edited by wadoka on Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Gordon changed the title to match.
All Blessings, C. Tak Kimura
oneya
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Post by oneya »

That's a brave statement TK. I have a moment so I'm wondering why you think the the Rohai connection is any different than say - the Jitte connection.?

oneya
Last edited by wadoka on Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Gordon edited the original post title, so Reg's first sentence is slightly out of context. Skip past it and it is all back on track.
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

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T. Kimura
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Post by T. Kimura »

Well. my assumption is that Jion and Jitte came to Wado via Funakoshi, as they are little changed. Funakoshi's favorite katas were Kushanku and Meikyo. Wado Kushanku is changed only a little--really only in two critical sequences; as such it more resembles Funakoshi's kanku than Mabuni's Kosokun Dai. Ohtsuka Sensei's favorite kata was Naihanchi. Naihanchi is much more than superficially changed from Shotokan. It seems Ohtsuka Sensei went out of his way to make his Naihanchi unique, even adding an opening sequence unknown in other naihanchi/Tekki versions. Film from 1928-1932 shows that the Funakoshi group practiced many more than 16 kata--one of the most commonly seen are gankaku (Chinto) and Meikyo; as it turns out Chinto is extremely close to the 1932 Shoto version; but Meikyo (Rohai), a kata that Ohtsuka Sensei undoubtedly knew well was not carried over to Wado; instead Ohtsuka Sensei adopted Rohai Shodan; a kata that is far less impressive on the surface than meikyo. strangely One of Mabuni's favorites was matsumura Rohai a very dynamic and impressive form. But Ohtsuka sensei selected Rohai shodan to be one of only a few kata in Wado Ryu. It has some very interesting technical points of contact with Naihanchi, especially in stance and lateral defenses. So I wonder....
As to Jitte and Nahanchi, I will need to look at that.
All Blessings, C. Tak Kimura
oneya
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Post by oneya »

Hi TK,

I guess it must be down to prisms and perceptions in the difference between the koryu of Ohtsuka meijin and the Funakoshi/Mabuni Okinawan connection. Certainly we can go beyond the nine accepted wado kata and join up a few dots but my perception of wado kata is one of winnowing or paring down rather than gathering a stockpile of repetitive movements. If you can find what you need in Pinan shodan or sandan why carry the excesses of more Kanku or Meikyo?

Ohtsuka meijin seemed to be of the opinion that you should be more creative rather than acquisitive

oneya
Reg Kear.
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T. Kimura
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Post by T. Kimura »

Oneya:
I am certain your perceptions are correct. Ohtsuka meijin said more than once that even 9 kata may be too many, but he spoke very well of naihanchi and said that he incorporated it as a whole into his "movement." They say Motobu trained Naihanchi almost exclusively; and there was some kind of Motobu influence on Wado. He (Ohtsuka) did chose not to "accumulate" Meikyo but did select Rohai shodan--I think because its "movement" seemed organically connected to the "movement" of Naihanchi. There are parts of Rohai that feel very much like Naihanchi. Otherwise, Rohai shodan seems like an odd choice over Meikyo or Matsumura Rohai.
All Blessings, C. Tak Kimura
oneya
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Post by oneya »

Hi TK,

.. again with the perception and prisms I'm afraid but d'ye not think that: "parts of Rohai feel very much like Naihanchi" precisely because they are both performed using wado movement...?? and for the same reason: wouldn't all wado kata have that 'wado feeling' ??

Had the old fella selected Matsumura Rohai or meikyo wouldn't these two also have that wado feel to them.?

Surely it is not the selected kata as such but what he did to the selected kata that makes 'em wado ryu..?

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
wadoka
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Post by wadoka »

I am going to change the title of this thread to something more appropriate.

Forgive my intrusion.
T. Kimura
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Re:

Post by T. Kimura »

oneya wrote:Hi TK,

.. again with the perception and prisms I'm afraid but d'ye not think that: "parts of Rohai feel very much like Naihanchi" precisely because they are both performed using wado movement...?? and for the same reason: wouldn't all wado kata have that 'wado feeling' ??

Had the old fella selected Matsumura Rohai or meikyo wouldn't these two also have that wado feel to them.?

Surely it is not the selected kata as such but what he did to the selected kata that makes 'em wado ryu..?

oneya
No, I think Nahanchi is rather unique in its feel independent of style, but that may just be me. There is a Wado quality to Wado kata of course but Jion still feels very different from Chinto; and naihanchi seems to eveoke a feeling and movement that reminds me of naihanchi.
All Blessings, C. Tak Kimura
oneya
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Re: Been practicing Rohai of late...

Post by oneya »

The difference will be even more explicit in Seishan then..?

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
T. Kimura
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Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:06 am
Location: California, USA

Re: Been practicing Rohai of late...

Post by T. Kimura »

oneya wrote:The difference will be even more explicit in Seishan then..?

oneya
I would think so since it is the only kata with nahate connections.
All Blessings, C. Tak Kimura
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