Killing me softly

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
Tim49
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:38 pm
Location: Essex UK
Contact:

Re: Killing me softly

Post by Tim49 »

acer wrote:
Acer, you need to ask yourself how come these practices are still around if no one teaches them..
Reading this :
He used Ju Jitsu techniques, Judo techniques, and Aikido techniques.

My mind goes that Ohtsuka Sensei use something different that we have in mind.Imagine something like aikijutsu maybe??I don’t think there are many who practice and teach that in Wado because it will need a separate train in JJ.
But if he was used the locks and throws we already have and practice in Wado and that the ''He used Ju Jitsu techniques, Judo techniques, and Aikido techniques'' means and not something different then ok.
If on the other hand use something like aikijutsu my question was why he did that and why he didn’t teach and include all that in Wado?
Why he teach and create a style and in a confrontation he use something different???

PS.Class I believe the story and I don’t try to find gaps.That’s why I find it very interesting why he use to fight totally different from the style he create and teach.Again if the ''He used Ju Jitsu techniques, Judo techniques, and Aikido techniques'' means something other that what we have in mind.
Aw Mike, look what you've done now!

Tim Shaw
Tim49
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:38 pm
Location: Essex UK
Contact:

Re: Killing me softly

Post by Tim49 »

Acer:
There are many things left of Ohtsuka Sensei’s legacy, it is probably leftover in a very piecemeal way but it’s there nonetheless. I think that those who worked closest with the old grandmaster got the biggest slices, though I get the impression that not all of them appreciated it. Ohtsuka himself is on record as chiding his students and their inability to understand everything he was teaching.

When I read Mike’s account I think I could visualise what master Ohtsuka did. I have seen some film of him doing unrehearsed impromptu techniques against an attacker. Yes I suppose some common ground could be recognised from judo, Aikijujutsu etc, but then they also strike and kick, but I suspect that Ohtsuka Sensei was doing his thing, not what the guys in the universities were doing, it is doubtful that he suddenly started doing identical techniques like that of Judo’s Yamashita (from the 60s and 70s) or like Kondo Sensei of Aikijujutsu; no he was drawing upon his own background. I heard stories about how Ohtsuka Sensei could fight and how the seniors at the honbu Dojo fought, and it was very different to the contest stuff in the universities.

Are Ohtsuka’s methods still taught today? Yes, I honestly believe they are, but some of the stuff has to be earned through long practice, earnest study, absorption and maturation, anyone who thinks that it’s all out there and can be just grabbed like kids picking candy in the sweet shop is just plain deluded.

Tim Shaw
zim
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:01 am
Location: Aalborg, Denmark

Re: Killing me softly

Post by zim »

acer wrote:
Acer, you need to ask yourself how come these practices are still around if no one teaches them..
Reading this :
He used Ju Jitsu techniques, Judo techniques, and Aikido techniques.

My mind goes that Ohtsuka Sensei use something different that we have in mind.Imagine something like aikijutsu maybe??I don’t think there are many who practice and teach that in Wado because it will need a separate train in JJ.
But if he was used the locks and throws we already have and practice in Wado and that the ''He used Ju Jitsu techniques, Judo techniques, and Aikido techniques'' means and not something different then ok.
If on the other hand use something like aikijutsu my question was why he did that and why he didn’t teach and include all that in Wado?
Why he teach and create a style and in a confrontation he use something different???

PS.Class I believe the story and I don’t try to find gaps.That’s why I find it very interesting why he use to fight totally different from the style he create and teach.Again if the ''He used Ju Jitsu techniques, Judo techniques, and Aikido techniques'' means something other that what we have in mind.
I guess I missed the memo but from my recent experience at both the Academy's winter course and the weekend course in Hamburg with Shiomitsu Sensei and Ohtsuka Sensei there was plenty of "ju jitsu" on offer. The pinch of salt analogy holds true.

Claas hits the nail on the head. What is it you are after? Wado is your own personal journey sand no one here is advocating one way. While there are some parallels to the dojo in the way that this forum works, there is also a lot more patience and diplomacy... This gives you the opportunity to be unclear, incoherent, and often times plain rude with little repercussion. There is a lot to learn here and a lot of folk put a lot of time and effort into trying to explain some pretty complex stuff. I, for one, am pretty damn grateful it exists.

At the end of each Academy course Shiomitsu Sensei always asks, "Any questions?" and, seldom, are there any. We all have questions, but perhaps we should remember the old analogy from Kung Fu, "I seek not to understand all the answers but to understand the questions."

If we don't have an appreciation for what we are asking, it can be difficult to understand the response we are getting back.

Happy Easter,
Chris Zimmerman
acer
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 9:49 am

Re: Killing me softly

Post by acer »

Thanks for the answer Tim.We all heard how Ohtsuka always moved different from his student and yes that was from his JJ background that his student didn’t have.That’s why its kind of hard to believe that its all there and you can find it if you don’t take the same way as Ohtsuka did.For example one can perform the attacks of tachi dori differently if he is a kenjutsu /iaijutsu (even kendo/iaido) practitioner from someone that he is not.The mindset is different...
The same goes (my opinion)and for the locks the throws etc.Someone with JJ/akijujitsu etc backround would perform the same moves different from someone that is more striker and practice them in time to time.
My question was why he choose his old training against someone who attack him aggressively and not stay and face him with what he was teaching as his style.
And why didn’t include all that in his new style.(if we talking here that he use stuff no one has ever seen before and after the confrontation right? )
Tim49
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:38 pm
Location: Essex UK
Contact:

Re: Killing me softly

Post by Tim49 »

acer wrote:Thanks for the answer Tim.We all heard how Ohtsuka always moved different from his student and yes that was from his JJ background that his student didn’t have.That’s why its kind of hard to believe that its all there and you can find it if you don’t take the same way as Ohtsuka did.For example one can perform the attacks of tachi dori differently if he is a kenjutsu /iaijutsu (even kendo/iaido) practitioner from someone that he is not.The mindset is different...
The same goes (my opinion)and for the locks the throws etc.Someone with JJ/akijujitsu etc backround would perform the same moves different from someone that is more striker and practice them in time to time.
My question was why he choose his old training against someone who attack him aggressively and not stay and face him with what he was teaching as his style.
And why didn’t include all that in his new style.(if we talking here that he use stuff no one has ever seen before and after the confrontation right? )
You seem to be living under the illusion that we can be Ohtsuka Sensei, we can’t; we can only follow the guidance and the method he designed for us. Wado has a teaching method and we must aspire to do the best we can with that, given that we only have limited time on this planet and limited resources available to us (in terms of lifestyle necessities).

Ohtsuka Sensei was 29/30 years old before his introduction to the framework of something called karate, from that point it took him many years to design his own framework. He doesn’t suddenly become his own framework, in that he tosses all his prior learning into the trash and operates in the punch kick way university types were all buying into (out of necessity I might add). He is the accumulation of his own years and experience, just the same as we as individuals all have to be, hence, we cannot be Ohtsuka.

To answer the last part of your question; you’d be surprised how much of it is still there, depends which lineage your Sensei is from.

But what keeps me coming back for more is the way Wado as a style/system unfolds slowly over time. It truly is a work of genius.

Tim Shaw
WadoAJ
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Gorinchem, Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Killing me softly

Post by WadoAJ »

Tim49 wrote:
acer wrote:Thanks for the answer Tim.We all heard how Ohtsuka always moved different from his student and yes that was from his JJ background that his student didn’t have.That’s why its kind of hard to believe that its all there and you can find it if you don’t take the same way as Ohtsuka did.For example one can perform the attacks of tachi dori differently if he is a kenjutsu /iaijutsu (even kendo/iaido) practitioner from someone that he is not.The mindset is different...
The same goes (my opinion)and for the locks the throws etc.Someone with JJ/akijujitsu etc backround would perform the same moves different from someone that is more striker and practice them in time to time.
My question was why he choose his old training against someone who attack him aggressively and not stay and face him with what he was teaching as his style.
And why didn’t include all that in his new style.(if we talking here that he use stuff no one has ever seen before and after the confrontation right? )
You seem to be living under the illusion that we can be Ohtsuka Sensei, we can’t; we can only follow the guidance and the method he designed for us. Wado has a teaching method and we must aspire to do the best we can with that, given that we only have limited time on this planet and limited resources available to us (in terms of lifestyle necessities).

Ohtsuka Sensei was 29/30 years old before his introduction to the framework of something called karate, from that point it took him many years to design his own framework. He doesn’t suddenly become his own framework, in that he tosses all his prior learning into the trash and operates in the punch kick way university types were all buying into (out of necessity I might add). He is the accumulation of his own years and experience, just the same as we as individuals all have to be, hence, we cannot be Ohtsuka.

To answer the last part of your question; you’d be surprised how much of it is still there, depends which lineage your Sensei is from.

But what keeps me coming back for more is the way Wado as a style/system unfolds slowly over time. It truly is a work of genius.

Tim Shaw
Hi Acer/Tim,

Tim, it is not how I would have verbalized it, but I was kind of reading Acers post in the same way. Acer, is this a correct observation?
I would say, we are ourselves, and we have to live with that. Then we stand before the choice to ignore our weakpoints, or try to make them stronger, or even our strong points. I'm merely using Wado and the teachings of my sensei as a tool. In the end it is my karate.

@Gusei
Nice verbalization, I would say "feel his center". I remember some weeks ago Gary mentioned something about sankaku. In my opinion that is just the external explanation. I wanted to reply that time but I forgot.
As for mikiri, I think that to do that in tachi dori, you need to be skilled with the sword yourself to do that with quality. Else, how can you feel the maai of the sword properly?

AJ
AJ van Dijk

President & Chief Instructor Wadokai Holland
General Secretary FEW Federation European Wadokai
http://www.WadokaiOnline.com - Wado Books // Wado DVDs
http://www.wadokai.nl
http://www.fewkarate.com
oneya
Posts: 857
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: Mornington Victoria Australia

Re: Killing me softly

Post by oneya »

Tim49 wrote:Acer:
There are many things left of Ohtsuka Sensei’s legacy, it is probably leftover in a very piecemeal way but it’s there nonetheless. I think that those who worked closest with the old grandmaster got the biggest slices, though I get the impression that not all of them appreciated it. Ohtsuka himself is on record as chiding his students and their inability to understand everything he was teaching.

When I read Mike’s account I think I could visualise what master Ohtsuka did. I have seen some film of him doing unrehearsed impromptu techniques against an attacker. Yes I suppose some common ground could be recognised from judo, Aikijujutsu etc, but then they also strike and kick, but I suspect that Ohtsuka Sensei was doing his thing, not what the guys in the universities were doing, it is doubtful that he suddenly started doing identical techniques like that of Judo’s Yamashita (from the 60s and 70s) or like Kondo Sensei of Aikijujutsu; no he was drawing upon his own background. I heard stories about how Ohtsuka Sensei could fight and how the seniors at the honbu Dojo fought, and it was very different to the contest stuff in the universities.

Are Ohtsuka’s methods still taught today? Yes, I honestly believe they are, but some of the stuff has to be earned through long practice, earnest study, absorption and maturation, anyone who thinks that it’s all out there and can be just grabbed like kids picking candy in the sweet shop is just plain deluded.

Tim Shaw
I think you are right Tim and Mike does give us this in his opening qualification:
This is from someone that witnessed this event in Hawaii, not me:
This should caution anyone to view this second hand (at least) account, from an event that happened perhaps 60 years ago, with at least an attempt at understanding the effects of Chinese whispers in the telling of war stories. Truth is a bit like Beauty in that it is pretty much in the eye of the beholder and the:
He used Ju Jitsu techniques, Judo techniques, and Aikido techniques.
is perhaps better read as:

"I have no idea what he was using but it looked something like Ju Jitsu or Judo or Aikido techniques"

if we take a moment to wonder if Ohtsuka meijin's brand of shindo yoshin ryu had ever even surfaced in Hawaii before so who would actually know. A little more doubt must also seep in if the guy who is perhaps already basking in a reflected warmth can garnish the meal a even more with:
The demonstration looked so real, that the face of Ohtsuka, looked like he was in fear of his life.
especially when we have all seen Ohtsuka meijin's face in his demonstrations, not everyone in actual attendance it is true, but enough to know that THE guy who is demonstrating his long, sharp and flashing pièce de résistance will also be wearing his best inscrutable head.

Even without any hooks to hang a hat on this is quite a dainty dish to set before our resident dissenter who I think is ever so slowly coming to realise there is more to be gained from the essence of this old meijin's method which requires discovery to be a major part of its practice.

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
TSYR
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:02 pm
Location: Evergreen, Colorado USA

Re: Killing me softly

Post by TSYR »

Hello,

Mr Kear is very astute. An observer from 60 years ago in Hawaii would have no idea what visually differentiated Judo, Jujutsu or Aikido. Frankly most people couldn't make an accurate distinction of this today if the performer was very advanced. I've had shihan ranked in Aikido tell me I'm doing advanced Aikido. I have students of Aikijujutsu tell me TSYR is actually Aikijujutsu. I have koryu jujutsuka from TSR and HYR say I'm doing the exact same stuff they do. I've even heard that my friend Kuroda Tetsuzan told a Wado shihan that if he want's to understand what he (Kuroda's) doing, a good option would be to attend one of my seminars.... ( Tetsuzan doesn't teach public seminars. )

Now, sometimes when people FEEL what I'm doing, their eyes do almost pop out of their head and they walk away saying, humm...That feels different than what I thought it was. This often creates the misconception that somehow TSYR is unique. Well, its not anymore unique than any other Nihon taijutsu system. Jujutsu, Aikijujutsu, Judo, Aikido, Wado ryu etc ...are virtually the same art when executed at a very high level. As Kuroda sensei says "All proper budo is the same". Obviously the outside framework (Omote kata) may appear different, especially early on in the training experience, but the engine driving real budo is generally the same and even starts to look the same the more advanced the practitioner is. This is why I teach seminars to aikido, aikijujutsu, jujutsu and Wado ryu groups all over the world. Advanced budo principles are all very similar. Last weekend I was teaching alongside the General Secretary of the International Aikido Federation. This weekend I'm teaching a group of koryu naginata practitioners. The weekend after that I'm teaching a Wado group in Switzerland. In May I'm doing a seminar on SYR Idori and tantodori for a Wado group in Germany. This coming September I'll be teaching in London at a Yoshinkan Aikido seminar alongside 7th Dan Robert Mustard. That's a pretty diverse audience. In my experience the best budoka are interested in what we all have in common rather than what separates us, and in proper context any differences that exist are positive as they just reinforce what makes a particular expression of budo unique, not necessarily superior.

Someone amused me by implying that Ohtsuka was somehow disingenuous if he executed jujutsu instead of Wado ryu during some particular venue?

My response is, "Did he really" ?

TSYR....
Tobin E Threadgill
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai
http://www.shinyokai.com
oneya
Posts: 857
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: Mornington Victoria Australia

Re: Killing me softly

Post by oneya »

Hi,

As long as we differentiate contemporary budo (現代武道) for some sectarian stylistic reasons we are going to be faced with reasoning or argument based on these differences. Pretty much in the manner of contemporary religion we can argue from different perspectives of personal prism and sectarian belief now that today’s budo scene is global in its proportions. Drawing the strings of human behaviour together in the all inclusive global situation where Japanese martial practice now has to examine itself, we still managed to adhere to a kind of ‘brand name’ zeal with which to describe each art in terms of its differences rather than its commonality which Threadgill sensei points out and the logic of Kuroda sensei alludes to. Quite unfortunately this seems to be a particular wado cross to bear because nowhere is this more evident than across the major three divisions of a family divided against itself in our collective pursuit of the wado experience. Divisions which are often difficult to pinpoint and justify when chatting across the garden fence as it were.

Traditional methods of shaping the individual that were a feature of Ohtsuka meijin’s practice were an expression of an experienced fighting man teaching inexperienced deshi simple principles of how to fight and fashioning a comfortable fitted suit for each student from its bespoke template. Now the vitality of this raison d'être is all too often lost in the shuffle of kuchi bushi, surplus ego and blinding bias. This traditional liaison and practice between the sensei and student, once insured by the guiding province of Shu Ha Ri, struggles now in our global tapestry and may often be fragile and stretched by the foolish practice of almost willingly inheriting the blinding sins of the past along with the wisdom of its philosophy. Two problems with this: once you know something, it is not possible to not know that same thing – and = One cannot know the true worth of something until one has it. This leaves us, in a wado world, based on the spectre of segregation which can be inimical to the very tenets of Ohtsuka meijin’s implicit message whenever we tie an obi or stretch a hamstring before putting his philosophy into practice but where little actually moves forward in the understanding of those tenets.

Look about you, one reason for this post is in the hope that it will generate a little more interest in signing up the wado ryu lurkers and clearly identifying ourselves with one of the best and most effective remedies to this stumbling block which has to be this very forum that we populate. This forum ranges across a broad wado ryu spectrum from the bright eyed neophyte to the greying journeyman with not only decades spent acquiring the wisdom of wado ryu but also here shows a tap into a gnosis conduit from the deepest depths of its genetic pool which is syphoned in direct from the Japanese founts of budo and koryu.

Acer, listen up.

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
mspain
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:54 am

Re: Killing me softly

Post by mspain »

The point of my posting the story is that some people probably could tell who was kicking whose butt... or "killing" the opponent without killing the opponent.

Mike Spain
Mike Spain
Post Reply