Killing me softly

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
wadoka
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Re: Killing me softly

Post by wadoka »

Acer, I might be on holiday but just a quick check here shows you add nothing to the general group discourse. People can disagree and people have don't this without issue recently but to just throw comments like that shows no real contribution. Why would anyone want to engage that? The self policing element should just mean your comments go unanswered. That is then a waste of energy. The natural Wado approach takes over.
Gusei21
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Re: Killing me softly

Post by Gusei21 »

kyudo wrote:Thanks Bob, interesting stuff...

As I've been on the receiving end of Threadgill sensei's technique a couple of times, I can relate to your description. However, speaking from my own rather limited experience on the subject, there appears to be another dimension to it.

Being flatfooted is one thing, the next second you may be kissing the ground with Threadgill's tanto up your neck. While you had the impression of being flatfooted, your whole body structure suddenly seemed to collapse for no apparent reason. So there appears to be a fine line between being flatfooted and being no-footed.

In any case, kumite gata, which is said to be one of the connecting points between SYR and karate, always seems to follow the same pattern: taisabaki, atemi, kuzushi. I guess the flatfoot part fits somewhere inbetween. But that, as you say, is upper level joden/okuden stuff that is way above my pay grade.
Hi Igor,

Sorry..my answer was a bit short earlier. I was already half asleep when I responded. Let me elaborate a bit more without going off the subject.
I earlier said that the flatfooted thing is an advanced form of kuzushi. Which I think it is and also being dumped on your butt by Threadgill Sensei is also a continuation on that spectrum if we are talking about the same thing. He does this thing to you where you find yourself on your butt without knowing how you got there. One moment you are standing and the next moment you are on the floor but you don't remember getting thrown. What he does is he lays his hands on you gently and feels thru your body to your center. And when he connects to your center he can also feel thru your feet and in the process know exactly how you are weighted. Then if he wants to make you flatfooted he will just weigh your center. If he wants to dump you on your butt then he moves your center to a location that is not supported by your structure thus dumping you on your butt. The reason the person has no clue what is happening is that he can access your center but you don't have access to his center so you don't realize you are being manipulated because there is nothing to resist against. So done that way being dumped on your butt is a continuum of getting your center accessed and weighted. This is all sophisticated jujitsu done at a very high level. It takes years to develop his level of sensitivity. Touching someone and just by touching knowing whether they are weighted on their heels or the ball of the foot or whatever and then weighting them down or displacing their center and dumping them is totally different from just pushing someone down by taking them down their weak line. When you get dumped by having your center taken down the weak line is something anyone can learn to do in a few minutes. But getting dumped because your center is being manipulated without you realizing what is happening because the person just accessed your center is a whole different level of expertise.

So back to my original idea - that Otsuka Sensei was accessing the swordsman's center and weighing it without the guy knowing he was being weighted thus rendering him vulnerable. And the only way you can do this is by accessing the person's center thru body sensitivity and structural awareness. Not sure if I am making any sense at this point....
Bob Nash
omote
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Re: Killing me softly

Post by omote »

Gusei21 wrote:
So back to my original idea - that Otsuka Sensei was accessing the swordsman's center and weighing it without the guy knowing he was being weighted thus rendering him vulnerable. And the only way you can do this is by accessing the person's center thru body sensitivity and structural awareness. Not sure if I am making any sense at this point....
Having had this demonstrated to/on my person, I can tell you that once it happens, you never forget "not feeling" it. It is like having my feet "stuck" to the floor, without my knowing it. For someone who has been kicked, punched & thrown his entire life, this experience was like a 20th century physicist seeing time travel for the first time.

If Ohtsuka sensei was demonstrating this in tachi tori (shinken shiraha dori), was he also actively teaching it to his senior students? Or was it something left in the kata, like an Easter egg, for the diligent and talented to find?

I have seen some of the basic drills from TSYR that Mr. Threadgill teaches to develop the foundation for this "sticking", but I have never run into any Wado drills that are openly explained to develop this skill set.

Omote
Jay Boatright
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kyudo
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Re: Killing me softly

Post by kyudo »

Gusei21 wrote:He does this thing to you where you find yourself on your butt without knowing how you got there.
An apt description...
Igor Asselbergs
http://kyudokan.nl/
acer
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Re: Killing me softly

Post by acer »

Acer, I might be on holiday but just a quick check here shows you add nothing to the general group discourse. People can disagree and people have don't this without issue recently but to just throw comments like that shows no real contribution. Why would anyone want to engage that? The self policing element should just mean your comments go unanswered. That is then a waste of energy. The natural Wado approach takes over.
Or in other words: '' we don’t have an idea...we don’t know...''
That’s why on my other comments there is no problem to answer..He-he-he...Its ok...
Gusei21
Posts: 403
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Re: Killing me softly

Post by Gusei21 »

acer wrote:
Acer, I might be on holiday but just a quick check here shows you add nothing to the general group discourse. People can disagree and people have don't this without issue recently but to just throw comments like that shows no real contribution. Why would anyone want to engage that? The self policing element should just mean your comments go unanswered. That is then a waste of energy. The natural Wado approach takes over.
Or in other words: '' we don’t have an idea...we don’t know...''
That’s why on my other comments there is no problem to answer..He-he-he...Its ok...
Actually my Sensei demonstrated how to use a lot of this in some kumite drills he showed me.
And I have been playing with it myself - especially because at the WKF World Championships people like Rafaek Aghayev from Azerbaijan is throwing people to the ground and scoring on them on his way to a Gold medal. There was one guy who I think had a judo background was able to counter Aghayev's throws because he was able to weight Aghayev and counter his throws. He barely lost to Aghayev but that was the only guy Aghayev could not throw. But then again why would I want to even share with you the details of the technique?
If you can weigh the person then in a clinch he cannot punch you with any power. He cannot throw you either.
Bob Nash
acer
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Re: Killing me softly

Post by acer »

Actually my Sensei demonstrated how to use a lot of this in some kumite drills he showed me.
And I have been playing with it myself - especially because at the WKF World Championships people like Rafaek Aghayev from Azerbaijan is throwing people to the ground and scoring on them on his way to a Gold medal. There was one guy who I think had a judo background was able to counter Aghayev's throws because he was able to weight Aghayev and counter his throws. He barely lost to Aghayev but that was the only guy Aghayev could not throw. But then again why would I want to even share with you the details of the technique?
If you can weigh the person then in a clinch he cannot punch you with any power. He cannot throw you either.
Thanks for the answer.I know exactly what you mean...My question was why Ohtsuka sensei didn’t continue to teach the techniques he use against his student and of course the way how to perform them against an opponent that strikes back?
Its kind of strange to show them,use them,but no teach them...
oneya
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Re: Killing me softly

Post by oneya »

Acer, you need to ask yourself how come these practices are still around if no one teaches them.. Perhaps your own understanding of the wado world just doesn't include them? This is not unusual if the tournament scene is the limit of your experience and after all this is usually the way that most folks experience wado ryu for the first time. However the tournament scene is said to be just a small part of the whole wado ryu experience and, if this is so -- and there are many here that understand the wado ryu in this way -- then there is obviously more to wado ryu than you know or are willing to concede for whatever reasons. Omote cannot exist without Ura and to disregard this will always be your loss but it needn't be this way.

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
claas
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Re: Killing me softly

Post by claas »

acer wrote:Thanks for the answer.I know exactly what you mean...My question was why Ohtsuka sensei didn’t continue to teach the techniques he use against his student and of course the way how to perform them against an opponent that strikes back?
Its kind of strange to show them,use them,but no teach them...
First of all we have to remember this is a story of which we cannot be certain to get the correct picture. Well of course believing the whole story is crap seems to be what you were hinting, so I hardly need to remind you that in this context all we know is that we seem to get a second hand version of an event long ago.

But for the sake of argument, lets just imagine that Ohtsuka has thrown some guy in ways he hasn't taught people very much how to do.
Would there be something strange in this? Absolutely not.
If someone decides to throw someone around, systems are not there. Only what is learned partially by systems and a determined mind-body are there. Just getting the job done.
Also, if a system focuses more on punching and kicking, still throwing around is something that would more come in question in that kind of situation. That is very obvious.

Trying to find a gap in logic between the reality you see and a story you read, in the way you just did, seems like yet another desperate attempt to say in your opinion something is wrong. We have read that so many times now.
Why do you do this?
Do you train Wado?
If you do, why?
If you don't, why do you "discuss" it here?


You might be the one that's "right" in the "ongoing debate" and everyone else might be "wrong", whatever that debate is, but since you seem to have everyone against you, you could look in the mirror and think: Maybe it is you who should change the angle, because what you get seems to be just entertainment in argument. That seems to be the only thing you are searching. Not anything wado-related.
You could discuss your real agenda in threads that have to do with your real agenda, instead of coming to every thread to "find gaps" in what people are saying as your private entertainment. I guess there already are threads for hook-punches and all that other stuff you seem to want systematized. If not, start one.
Lasse Candé
Helsinki, Finland
acer
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Re: Killing me softly

Post by acer »

Acer, you need to ask yourself how come these practices are still around if no one teaches them..
Reading this :
He used Ju Jitsu techniques, Judo techniques, and Aikido techniques.

My mind goes that Ohtsuka Sensei use something different that we have in mind.Imagine something like aikijutsu maybe??I don’t think there are many who practice and teach that in Wado because it will need a separate train in JJ.
But if he was used the locks and throws we already have and practice in Wado and that the ''He used Ju Jitsu techniques, Judo techniques, and Aikido techniques'' means and not something different then ok.
If on the other hand use something like aikijutsu my question was why he did that and why he didn’t teach and include all that in Wado?
Why he teach and create a style and in a confrontation he use something different???

PS.Class I believe the story and I don’t try to find gaps.That’s why I find it very interesting why he use to fight totally different from the style he create and teach.Again if the ''He used Ju Jitsu techniques, Judo techniques, and Aikido techniques'' means something other that what we have in mind.
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