Kihon kumite on the opposite side

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
Gary
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Re: Kihon kumite on the opposite side

Post by Gary »

Tim49 wrote:Re. ambidextrousness.

A couple of examples to throw into the ring:

I presume most of you are aware of the left handed thrust in Tanto Dori and the mythology surrounding it?

Also:

In medieval history there was once a Scottish clan who trained all their fighting men to be left handed, this was considered dishonourable, particularly when you look at the origins of shaking hands in Western culture, i.e. to offer your weapon hand to a potential aggressor. Also, it is said that in the turret design of European castles the spiral stairways were designed to give the right handed defenders the advantage. The spiral blocked the stronger arm of the invaders but allowed easy access for the defenders. Might be a myth, but like most apocryphal stories there is sometimes a grain of something useful.

I am also inclined to mention a particular duel in The Princess Bride.

Tim
Tim,

Trained with Steve today and we talked about this.

He showed me some Tenshin Shinyo Ryu versions that are very close to the SYR and (ultimately) the Wado version.

You will remember at the start of All Wado we talked about KK#10 and its comparison to TSR Kinukatsugi (carry the cloth).

FWIW he said that these weren't "typically" practiced on both sides - although there is no harm to.

Just thought I'd share.

Gary
Gary Needham
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blackcat
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Re: Kihon kumite on the opposite side

Post by blackcat »

Gary wrote:[
FWIW he said that these weren't "typically" practiced on both sides - although there is no harm to.

Just thought I'd share.

Gary
Its probably the best way to look at it too.

Some aspects of kihon gumite we should really be able to do on either side of our body, other parts, maybe it's not so necessary.

One aspect of Kano's judo was that it was developed so both sides of the body could be used. The arts from which it originated perhaps made a presumption about the opponents being armed in the custom of their day.

If we look at Otsuka and Kato in "Karatedo Taikan", Kato does not alway start with his right side forward so the principle of being on your right isn't necessarily set in stone.

Ben
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Re: Kihon kumite on the opposite side

Post by oneya »

blackcat wrote:
Gary wrote:[
FWIW he said that these weren't "typically" practiced on both sides - although there is no harm to.

Just thought I'd share.

Gary
Its probably the best way to look at it too.

Some aspects of kihon gumite we should really be able to do on either side of our body, other parts, maybe it's not so necessary.

One aspect of Kano's judo was that it was developed so both sides of the body could be used. The arts from which it originated perhaps made a presumption about the opponents being armed in the custom of their day.

If we look at Otsuka and Kato in "Karatedo Taikan", Kato does not alway start with his right side forward so the principle of being on your right isn't necessarily set in stone.

Ben
Its probably the best way to look at it too.
Well perhaps in the first instance Ben but the problem with the question is it's limited. "Opposite side of the of the body" - to what.? It presupposes that we are all on the same omote page in our thinking.

From a broader wado perspective: kihon kumite has, as part of its function, the teaching of the wado dynamic of total body use in movement and delivery of energy from its core. The 'opposite side' may well imply a right or left handedness or aspect but often further implies (and lingers in many societies) a judgement of right or wrong which stems from its Latin 'sinestrum ra' which gives us ‘perverse/ inauspicious and in the more unenlightened times was also associated with witchcraft and evil, a bit like Tim’s ‘baggage attached’ Patriot.

Wado core dynamic emanates from a more inclusive inner to outer and total If we look at aspects. Left or right will trap you into limb centric mentality and we all find out wado ryu is much deeper than this.

oneya
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claas
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Re: Kihon kumite on the opposite side

Post by claas »

kyudo wrote:
T. Kimura wrote:To practice the left and right sides of the body equally.
Should you?
I mean, that makes sense from a physical exercise point of view. But I don't see how it makes much sense from a martial point of view. Practicing only one side saves you half the time you need for conditioning your body. I have trouble enough learning one side. I sure don't want to double the effort.
Hi,

I think you are making an assumption that is something like doing a technique as a mirror image is a completely new technique. Firstly, if this is what you are saying, I totally disagree. When I practiced the basics of kicking in football (soccer) my right kick made serious progress, once I started training my left as a project. Once you do this, your analysis might find a different focus. One that you should have thought about but haven't. Sometimes we might just repeat mindlessly and not even notice this. (Of course we do not want to and we definitely should not but we are just human beings with our own blind spots in self-awareness.)
The funny thing is that have I kicked those kicks with my right foot, my right shot would suck even more now than what it does. So I'm speculating the most effective way for me to train my right kick at that time was kicking with my left.

Secondly, like Tim said, your body might perform the same action from the opposite side somewhere else. (This is my interpretation of what he said.) So the time invested helps you there and certainly doesn't get wasted.


I do not mean to interpret your message wrong on purpose, but since you do say "saves you half the time" and "double the effort" you really seem to say how I interpreted, even though you probably exaggerated on purpose to strengthen your point. (?)
Lasse Candé
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kyudo
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Re: Kihon kumite on the opposite side

Post by kyudo »

claas wrote: I do not mean to interpret your message wrong on purpose, but since you do say "saves you half the time" and "double the effort" you really seem to say how I interpreted, even though you probably exaggerated on purpose to strengthen your point. (?)
Sorry, but I kind of lost track of interpretations here...
Nevertheless, on the subject of soccer, there are very few soccer players who can kick equally well left and right. And it doesn't seem to bother them much.

Oneya rightly observed that wado delivers energy from the core of the body. So at the end of the day, I don't think it's about left or right...
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claas
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Re: Kihon kumite on the opposite side

Post by claas »

kyudo wrote:Nevertheless, on the subject of soccer, there are very few soccer players who can kick equally well left and right. And it doesn't seem to bother them much.
Hi,

This was not the point. It seems you said the effort doubles if you also train techniques mirrored. My point was to simply say this isn't the case. In the football analogy, also the stronger side might become better by training the weaker side and this probably goes as much for Wado.

(In football the ability to kick well from both sides is very generally regarded as a huge advantage, but this might be irrelevant for the thread.)

(Edit afterwards: spelling mistake)
Last edited by claas on Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lasse Candé
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Re: Kihon kumite on the opposite side

Post by kyudo »

claas wrote:My point was to simply say this isn't the case. In the football analogy, also the stronger side might become better by training the weaker side and this probably goes as much for Wado.
Point taken.
Igor Asselbergs
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TSYR
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Re: Kihon kumite on the opposite side

Post by TSYR »

Hi,

FWIW, the reason most koryu kata are not practiced on both sides has to do with the assumption that one is wearing weapons in the obi. With a sword or wakazashi in the obi, performing most kata on both sides is simply not possible. Only using a bokken for training can create a problematic assumption because when the bokken is removed, no saya remains in the obi as would happen if wearing a real sword.

There is also an issue of left handedness being viewed unfavorably by the Edo Period Japanese, but that is a topic culturally beyond the purview of this discussion.

Wado embraces a totally different assumption in this regard, so it seems natural to me that a wadoka might train both sides in something like kihon kumite.

Regards,

TT
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Re: Kihon kumite on the opposite side

Post by Wado heretic »

Did Ohtsuka Meijin ever teach them from the opposite side or have any of his students ever stated as much?
R. Keith Williams
claas
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Re: Kihon kumite on the opposite side

Post by claas »

I would have a story about Ohtsuka sensei and a question about the side thing. I will not post it publicly however, because I cannot be too certain about contexts, correct understanding and so on, so it's better if it's not made public. Anyone truly interested can ask in person if we ever meet. (The story is not so interesting really.)


I know in one Chinese art the reasoning for having the stronger side in front is that grappling and throwing are done more naturally from there. The takedowns in Chinese arts are many times very "straigh-forward-entering-and-taking-down-directly". So they do not want to change the side first, which makes complete sense.
I guess teachers in many Chinese arts would agree, so this is probably not limited to just the one.

Having the left side in front might be a product of taking out the grappling from the equation in sports like boxing. I have heard different theories for why it is better to have the left hand in front.

In MMA Thai-boxing is a very popular base for the kicking and punching techniques. One of the reasons might be that a somewhat squared stance suits better the grappling that the fight most of the times ends up to. Perhaps other forms of kick-boxing are too left-sided?
(Of course also the techniques arsenal matter.)


Coincidence or not, from our techniques we can many times enter with our stronger side for a takedown or to break the balance, now that we perform them from the right side as a standard. Probably a coincidence yes, but might have had an influence in the evolution process of Wado.
Lasse Candé
Helsinki, Finland
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