How much do you learn from your Sensei?

[honoluludesktop]

When Ohtsuka passed, he was heard to say he failed as a teacher, that he was unable to pass on his knowledge. This is not uncommon. I read that a young Westerner once said to Ueshiba, that he wished to learn the Master's Aikido. Ueshiba replied that when he looked back, he did not see anyone following in his footsteps.

One of Ohtsuka's principle students told me that at best, his karate was 20% of the founder's knowledge. It is my guess that my teacher's karate was less. This makes sense, especially based on Ohtsuka's lament. Perhaps the problem comes from emptying our teacups. Even when we succeed in doing so, our teachers knowledge is capable of filling much more then a few teacups. Perhaps the evolution of one's skill is naturally like this, after all Ohtsuka eventually left Funakoshi to establish Wadoryu.

I am far from mastering the art, but I have learned a few things. Little of which I was able to pass on to kohai. One example deals with practicing one step prearranged sparring; that of defending a one step attack striking jodan. The lesson is (from time to time) in place of blocking, to retreat only as necessary for the incoming strike to end less then an inch from its target. Most of the time the attacker doesn't step in far enough, or when they do, they miss on purpose. Some times they over shoot, and attack the space behind you. IMO when you can respond to all of these situations, you are on your way to understanding distance. Although I have demonstrated this many times, I have not seen any kohai attempt to do this. Maybe a stupid lesson?

Eventually, I have come to believe that our egos are greater barriers to receiving lessons then we believe. Heck, It only took me 30 years to learn the above.:)

[oneya]

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Just because it's Monday hdt,

I think we have run a thread recently on dangers of the myth and legend dangers to truth and impressionable minds so I think the hearsay in both Ueshiba and Ohtsuka's case may be best left alone. It would be true to say though that while most of today’s sensei don’t quite reflect their sensei or the progenitor of their particular style of gendai budo perhaps because there has been a global diaspora that would/could account for much of this.

On the other hand I understand what you are saying about ippon kumite but would like to clarify that we are talking of wado ryu here because I see Heiwado - with its added bounty of other elements like chi kung and modern day Shoto - may now be different from wado ryu’s central premise of ko bu ittai where wado is based on ‘offence and defence being the same thing rather than offence or defence alone. So – unless we are demonstrating or teaching something like sundome – or perhaps mikiri as such – then wado ryu's torimi role would surely be to counter attack in any ippon kumite.?

In fact I don’t know of any wado ippon kumite that only has a block in reply to jodanzuki.

That apart: as far as ‘How much we learn from our sensei’ We can argue that the learning requirement would be, in part, covered by the Shu Ha Ri philosophy where the learning of fundamental principles and practice is charged with an obedience factor for the Shu element to keep the integrity of the legacy true in its transfer from Sensei to student. Beyond this the path may necessarily change to meet the needs of the individual. A while ago in Japan this probably would have had a stronger cultural acceptance but our current global mixture has set traditions such as this aside or misunderstood them and consigned this to the generic melting pot. In any case the sensei’s understanding of this of course would be different to the student whose experience through a large part of his or her initial dojo life would be mired in confusion and struggle rather than knowledge and ease of application, What has to be true also is that the part of each journey from confusion to knowledge is not the same experience for everyone. So because ego is not necessarily a pejorative as we are all very individual with the martial banquet being an acquired taste, perhaps the question could be considered as more ‘How best we feed the individual instead of “How much and when should a student be fed?”.

Oneya

[honoluludesktop]

Thanks for your tolerance.:)

The Ohtsuka story was told to me by someone who was at his death bed, and the Ueshiba one was written in one of his books (sorry, I don't recall which). You can still question them. This is after all, a forum.

I don't know about chi kung, or modern day shuto, but the example deals with a step, same side punch to the head by the attacker, and a variation to "block counter" in order to test one's ability to judge distance. Everyone is free to apply the response to what ever kata they chose to study.

You are right from the perspective of a teacher, my point of view is as a student. Btw, in my part of the world it's still Sunday.:)

[oneya]

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Not too many would have been at that bedside so you must travel in interesting company..

As for the freedom to apply whatever response to Jodanzuki: There is a school (wado) of thought that block without counter would be inimical to the tenet of ko-bo-ittai and its timing. Perhaps the fellow at the Tokyo bedside could convince you.? Anyway, 'blocks' as such are rare flowers in a wado dojo.

Again I can only refer you to Shu Ha Ri and its process to ensure the integrity and longevity of any particular martial legacy. in the shu aspect of Shu Ha Ri one would be attempting to align the students perspective with the instructors perspective or the whole ryu will be short lived. In this Shu instance a student’s contrary point of view would be a luxury that is unaffordable if the legacy is to survive.

OK Monday was good but I have finished with it now so it’s all yours.

Oneya.

[honoluludesktop]

Thanks Oneya. No, I did not travel in special company. When you live in paradise, people love to visit. If I lived in any other American county with a population under a million, I doubt that I would have had the opportunity to study Architecture under the likes of Jorn Utzon. Especially at a small State University for little money, but I did. So with the numerous Karate instructors from Japan that came to visit. Since my Sensei was among the Senior Karate persons who left Japan, they visited him, and got I lucky, especially with getting to meet some of the Shotokan, and Wadoryu masters after training was over.

I am sure that you got my point about communicating. About how difficulty it is to transmit experiences from one person to another. This is even more difficult between people that have different backgrounds. That's just the way it is. It's now Monday, and time for bed.

Mahalo, hdt

[Gusei21]

Hi Desktop,

Thank you for your perspective. I knew Hirano Sensei. Not like you obviously but I saw him once a year.
i think we need to put certain things in perspective and I know you are stuck on the beautiful Island but..
1) There is I believe a mistaken perception that the teachers of old were better than the teachers of today.
I tend to disagree. There are excellent teachers today in Japan and overseas. Just on this forum I believe that Oneya, Tim, Wadoka among others know more about Wado than the first instructors who came West from Japan with the exception of Suzuki Sensei who was in a different category.
Most the the other people who left Japan to teach overseas were just kids fresh out of Japanese Universities who barely knew anything beyond the rudimentary kihon and kata but they were tough guys. Some were good fighters but compared the the fighters of today....no comparison. The fighters of today are faster and technically more sound.

Oneya, Tim, Wadoka and others they understand Wado theory and can do things more proficiently than the guys who came over including Hirano, Ajari and others. This is strictly my opinion but I can tell what Hirano knew based on my conversations with him and I certainly know the extent of knowledge possessed by all the other Japanese Wado instructors in the US. The senior Occidental people in the West of today know and can do much more thanks to the hours of time they put in with Shiomitsu, Suzuki and others.

The only Wado in Hawaii is in Hilo. Look up Craig Kadooka. He is running a club in Hilo and is an official branch of the Wadokai.
See if you can hook up with him.

Hirano Sensei was really good at what he did and he created excellent competitors. But they were doing Hirano ryu if you can call it that. And that is fine for what it is. I like the way he moved. Very smooth. And he was a nice guy which is more than I can say for some of the others.

Try reading some of what Tim has written regarding Wado. Tim has done an amazing job and his writings are extremely educational. He knows more about this stuff than most people I know. Oneya is our class philosopher and our senior Wado man. He always amazes me with all the Wado/Japanese martial arts knowledge he has acquired even though he does not speak Japanese. He has essentially been training with just his brothers these past few decades away from his instructor, Suzuki Sensei, yet he understands this stuff more than most Japanese in Japan.

There is a huge resource pool on this forum. If you surf then you get this....its like going to a new surf location and joining an unfamilar lineup. Respect the locals. Get to know them. And don't forget the Aloha spirit. It's all good.

[oneya]

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Wow, Jorn Utzon..! the Danish guy who designed the Sydney Opera House right here in Australia, well if you study with the likes of him I guess you'd know about structure, form and function. Perhaps in much the same way if you studied Wado ryu under guys like Ohtsuka or Suzuki, Arakawa or Shiomitsu or some other greats at JKF wadokai who used similar concepts of structure, form and function to achieve their aims. Obvious difference is they do this with human beings where they are often successful in transforming the aggressive urges of youthful exuberance into more thoughtful members of society.

I have to agree – in part - about the difficulty in transmitting experiences from one person to another, I say in part because the early pioneers of wado ryu who came to the UK had little knowledge of the English language or its people and yet wado in its many guises litters the UK cities and countryside now and these two races could not have been more dissimilar. I guess the rapid learning curve that prevailed was due to the resolve and being open to the experience on both sides. More especially though was the sensei needed to eschew any ethnic intransigence and hop on that learning curve themselves.

Ah, here comes Tuesday and more dojo time.

Oneya.

[mspain]

I would like to add some details for people that may not know more information regarding Mr. Hirano just so there are no misconceptions.

Mr. Hirano did not call what he taught in Hawaii from at least the 1970's Wado Ryu. I have video from the early 1980's of Mr. Hirano stating this in no uncertain terms. Some people in his organization have and still call what they do Wado Ryu. There is even a part of his organization that know refers to Hirano-ha karate, yet they claim to teach traditional Shotokan. I do not question what they teach, but I would think there is either Hirano-ha or Shotokan.

I first learned karate in Mr. Hirano's organization in Hawaii and now in Chiang Mai we are Wado Kai.

MSPain

PS There is a Wado Academy in Honolulu and there is a Wado Renmei guy, the same Renmei that HDT mentioned. Not sure why they are different. Maybe now they are the same. I think the Renmei guy is Guy Yamashita, but then relying on MY memory is not good!

[honoluludesktop]

Hi fellows, I tried hard not to imply that the older Sensei (except Suzuki*), and the old days, were better, just different. I didn't claim that Hirano taught orthodox Wado, and I am pretty sure I wrote that he only taught a few of the senior students Wado kata, and kihon kumite kata (actually 6 of us). If anyone thinks otherwise, I again have failed to communicate. I am also sure the senior karateka here have much more technical information on Wadoryu then myself. Just trying to share my personal experiences, and learn some of the Wado concepts I am not familiar with, like urawaza. You got to admit, no one has attempted to share much more then a definition of the word. There has been almost zero technical dialogue. Again, I understand the limitation of discussing technical aspects of concepts like nagashi, etc. but don't fault me for trying. I understand the reluctance some have with dispensing information on the Internet, and we are all the poorer for that. Perhaps I am mistaken, I even detect some sarcasm (*even mine above:), however I accept all that that in hopes of better dialogue in the future.

From Professor Utzon, I learned how to appreciate the cultural, topographic, and environmental differences in places, even here in Hawaii where I have resided most of my life. While he was a genius regarding form, IMO his true talent lay in the poetic integration of technology and human aspirations.



Manalo, hdt

[honoluludesktop]

Hi Mike, I missed your post while writing my own. My understanding of what you say is correct. However I didn't know that some called it Hirano-ha, or Shotokan. I have heard some say that JIKC's karate was Shotokan, but Hirano certainly never endorsed that ryu as his style. Although I graded shodan as "Zen Nihon Karate League of America", thereafter my certificates were issued by "JIKC".

I believe (I could be wrong) the reason some JIKC persons used Wado as their style came about from competing at venues like the USANKF, where they were asked to state which style JIKC practiced. Hirano never offered more then "Japanese Karate" for his style. I think many wrote Wadoryu because of Hirano's roots, and to avoid prolonged discussions like this one. It is my guess that over time some misunderstandings developed. After Hirano retired from running JIKC, and passed the organization to his senior teachers, one of them proposed the use of "Heiwado" as JIKC's style. The name literally means "the way of peace and harmony, and is a play of words with Hirano's name (Hirano's Wado). Btw, as I have said before, shortly after Hirano passed, I retired from participation, and am only speaking for myself.

Mahalo, hdt