Idori

[blackcat]

Hi Blackcat,

It's confusing isn't it?

Frequently the ura version of a particular kata will develop its own unique nick name. Takamura sensei did this all the time which drove us batty on occasion. Other times a teacher will employ his own nickname for a kata or read the kanji using an alternate or arcane pronunciation. It is one of the issues that really causes problems for those who cannot read kanji and are forced to represent names only in in romaji. Kanegidori/shumokudori is a good example. I'm fortunate to have inherited Takamura's extensive collection of densho including both a Tenjin Shinyo ryu and Yoshin ryu densho that includes furigana. When you look up this technique on one of the Tenjin Shinyo ryu densho in our collection the furigana says Shumokudori, but in an older Yoshin ryu densho the furigana says the kata is pronounced Kanegidori. To complicate things more for Shindo Yoshin ryu, the Akiyama Yoshin ryu (TSR) and Nakamura Yoshin Koryu (Totsuka Yoshin ryu) mixes different naming conventions. Sometimes the omote kata name describes the attack and the ura kata names the technique while in other cases this is reversed! (Seionage / Ushiro Dori & Ryote Dori / Tegaeshi). This is how over several generations different lines of the same martial art can develop a mokuroku that appears different but in execution is technically the same.

My guess is Hakoishi sensei is probably just describing what going on in an informal manner and not intending it to be a proper name.

Isn't Japanese fun?

TSYR

That explains the naming kanegidori - I wondered if it might be an alternative reading of the kanji. Hakoishi sensei likes to give his techniques names - all the sword techniques he demonstrates are like this too. But sticking with idori names, from the list of 7 techniques presented on the Wadokai video, it looks like perhaps 2 or 3 of these are what you've described as informal naming rather than taking the names from SYR list directly.

The standing version of shumokudori is something totally different though isn't it, where the throw is more like osotogari for want of a better description?

Ben

[WadoAJ]

Who is the guy doing it in the snow?

I think this is him: He is Dutch. I think I have seen him a couple of times on seminars years ago.

Interesting thread btw, have been absent for a while, have been way to busy!

AJ

[TSYR]

The standing version of shumokudori is something totally different though isn't it, where the throw is more like osotogari for want of a better description?

Hi Blackcat,

Yes, if you mean in Tenjin Shinyo ryu. In Shindo Yoshin ryu the standing Kanegidori is very similar to the kneeling version. The TSR Shumokudori survives in SYR but is called Sodeotoshi (sleeve drop). This probably indicates it came from the Nakamura Yoshin Koryu line because of the different name, but that is speculation. Matsuoka might have simply changed the name.

I assume the mokuroku you have for Shindo Yoshin ryu came from Dr Fujiwara unless you have access to a very old densho. Remember, the Matsuoka line curriculum was significantly pared down by Inose sensei in the early 20th century with virtually all the buki no mokuroku abandoned.

I have over 30 Yoshin ryu densho and 10 Shindo Yoshin ryu densho plus many others from Yoshin ryu descendent schools like Tenjin Shinyo ryu, Shinkan ryu, Shishin ryu, Ryushin Katchu ryu and Shindo Goshin ryu. It is a fascinating albeit rather academic undertaking to compare and contrast how these different lines of jujutsu evolved over time. It is also sad that so much has been lost to time.

I'm flattered and encouraged when people in Wado demonstrate interest in their SYR roots. Without the dedication of Ohgami sensei and Takamura sensei, accurately fitting SYR and Wado ryu together, both technically and historically, would have been near impossible. Although there are still questions, without the efforts of these two men the greater legacy of these two arts and their relationship would have been lost.

Regards,

TSYR

[blackcat]

[Hi Blackcat,

Yes, if you mean in Tenjin Shinyo ryu. In Shindo Yoshin ryu the standing Kanegidori is very similar to the kneeling version. The TSR Shumokudori survives in SYR but is called Sodeotoshi (sleeve drop). This probably indicates it came from the Nakamura Yoshin Koryu line because of the different name, but that is speculation. Matsuoka might have simply changed the name.

I assume the mokuroku you have for Shindo Yoshin ryu came from Dr Fujiwara unless you have access to a very old densho. Remember, the Matsuoka line curriculum was significantly pared down by Inose sensei in the early 20th century with virtually all the buki no mokuroku abandoned.


Regards,

TSYR

Hi T,

Yes, the list of techniques for SYR which I have are from Fujiwara, so there are about 125 techniques (pair kata) listed which is about the same number as the list of techiques for Mr Kubota's line of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. If we compare these, then at least half, perhaps two thirds, are the same, which I guess is as it should be.The method of performance may differ of course. If people are interested, then the good folks at Mugendo will obtain a copy of the Nihon Budokan series film of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu: https://www.budogu.com/index.cfm?

If people are interested, the Nihon Kobudo series has maybe 8 or 9 pure jujutsu films amongst the 70 or so that have been published. Its an incredible work they've done. They were supposed to make a film of Shindo Yoshin Ryu but it's certainly not been published and I've no idea if it was filmed. Some of the TSR film looks quite dated so it may be they have some archive material still to be released.

I am sure the Otsuka family have some material too which would be invaluable for researchers. Lets hope that becomes available to help complete the puzzle.

Regards

Ben

[TSYR]

Hi T,

Yes, the list of techniques for SYR which I have are from Fujiwara, so there are about 125 techniques (pair kata) listed which is about the same number as the list of techiques for Mr Kubota's line of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. If we compare these, then at least half, perhaps two thirds, are the same, which I guess is as it should be.The method of performance may differ of course. If people are interested, then the good folks at Mugendo will obtain a copy of the Nihon Budokan series film of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu: https://www.budogu.com/index.cfm?

If people are interested, the Nihon Kobudo series has maybe 8 or 9 pure jujutsu films amongst the 70 or so that have been published. Its an incredible work they've done. They were supposed to make a film of Shindo Yoshin Ryu but it's certainly not been published and I've no idea if it was filmed. Some of the TSR film looks quite dated so it may be they have some archive material still to be released.

I am sure the Otsuka family have some material too which would be invaluable for researchers. Lets hope that becomes available to help complete the puzzle.

Regards

Ben

Hi Blackcat,

The original SYR mokuroku totaled around 300 kata. In TSYR we have to total of 305 kata listed on all our densho. That gives you an idea how much was abandoned by Inose in the early 20th century, much of it weapon related.

The Nihon Kobudo Series video I have of TSR includes footage of the Kubota and Tobari lines. Takamura sensei was good friends with Tobari Kazu, in fact I have seen a photo of them practicing idori together. He indicated the flavor of the two lines was quite different. Unfortunately Tobari Kazu was quite old in the Nihon Kobudo video so her execution is not very dynamic. Kubota sensei's execution is very dynamic but very different in flavor from that of SYR.

I too have heard the Budokan shot some footage of SYR for the Nihon Kobudo Series but a contact I have inside the Budokan has not been able to locate this footage and says no one currently associated with the series knows anything about it. If that's true, it is a tragic loss as the footage would have been very interesting to see from a historical prespective.

Regards,

TSYR

[honoluludesktop]

It amazes me how effortless this looks, almost as if it is staged. I know it's not as i've had this done to me(not at this level) in the past....

I once practiced at every end of class, knife attack and defense with the same partner for a couple of years, until he moved away. Once you get over the fact that you will get cut by the blade, its motion is visable to the eye, hense from the outside it always looks staged, especially when the partners have a lot of practice together. In any case, the defender only has to maintain the blade's distance to the body, and angle to its movement. When we did knife demonstrations, the selected partners would not train too much, and the demonstration would look real. Also, for the purposes of demonstrations, we never used orthodox kata, but one of our own.